If you're on Economy 10 or a complex tariff, now is a good time to....

mmmmikey

Either

(a) Buy secondhand High Heat Retention (HHR) storage heaters on eBay.

Whatever you think about the rights and wrongs of it (and I'm hoping we can avoid having that discussion here) the writing is on the wall for Economy 10 and other complex tariffs such as THTC. It's becoming increasingly difficult to find suppliers who offer these tariffs and it seems likely that will continue and only get harder. Even if you do manage to find a supplier and jump through all the hoops, you're restricted by choice which limits competition and keeps prices higher than they might other be.

An approach to consider here is to upgrade any old style storage heaters to modern High Heat Retention alternatives (such as Dimplex Quantum or Elnur HHR). Because these are very much better at keeping the heat "in the box" until you want it, the need for the afternoon boost largely goes away and modern heaters work well with Economy 7 or whatever smart tariff may eventually replace it.

You don't need to change all your heaters at once, you can start with the one you rely on most. If you buy the replacements secondhand off eBay, you can pick them up for very much less than the new price (I paid about £200 each for Elnur HHR heaters) and they're likely to have years (or maybe decades!) of life left in them. They do need setting up differently to get the timings right but this is easily achieved.

Lots of ifs, buts and possible maybes but you may well find that going down this route saves you money very quickly as well as relieving you of the ongoing hassle of finding an E10 supplier.

If you want to explore this option, and have any questions just ask, plenty of folk here who will be able to help.

Or

(b) Start saving for a new heating system.

I'm sure the heckles will rise at this suggestion (nobody wants to spend money replacing something that is working fine), but sooner or later and regardless whether you think it is right or wrong you're going to have to face the reality that E10 etc. are on their way out (and again let's not have the debate here about the rights and wrongs of it all). Well worth trying to put some money aside each year if you possibly can (and if not, worth checking out what grants are available in your area).

......

Obviously very much a personal choice as to what to do, but much better IMHO, to have a plan rather than sit back and wait for the problem to hit you....

Thoughts?

WiserMiser

E10 and similar tariffs date back to when electricity cost peanuts and the cheap hours were genuinely off peak rather than only overnight.  The heaters were fairly wasteful because they leaked heat when it wasn't needed, e.g. overnight and during the day if you were out at work or the weather was mild.  However, people weren't too concerned because it was affordable and nice to be toasty at all times, e.g. if you had to get up in the night.

However, things are very different today and an old box of bricks with only a mechanical flap to control the output wastes a lot of money.  If your own the property and plan to stay a reasonable time it's worth considering upgrading to HHR NSHs.  They'll also make it easier to sell when the time comes: buyers didn't pay much attention to the type of heating system as long as it did the job and wasn't falling apart, but now they're much more critical.

Swipe

I have E7 and a number of old style (boxes of bricks) storage heaters. As I'm home all day, I get by just fine with that set up. In fact, I prefer to wake up to leaked heat in winter. During any cold spells, I just shift my waking hours back and rise at 5 or 6am to compensate. I may consider switching to Octopus Snug when my 10p overnight rate fix ends in the latter half of November unless anything cheaper appears in the meantime.

mmmmikey

Swipe said:

I have E7 and a number of old style (boxes of bricks) storage heaters. As I'm home all day, I get by just fine with that set up. In fact, I prefer to wake up to leaked heat in winter. During any cold spells, I just shift my waking hours back and rise at 5 or 6am to compensate. I may consider switching to Octopus Snug when my 10p overnight rate fix ends in the latter half of November unless anything cheaper appears in the meantime.

Thanks - you make a good point. Economy 7 still works well for lots of people and if I was in your situation I'd do the same. The heat that leaks out the box of bricks isn't wasted if you're there to enjoy it, and potentially just using a fan heater or whatever for an evening boost can often be the best way forward. 

Octopus Snug is an interesting legacy / smart time of use tariff hybrid that combines smart technology with the switching technology (ALCS) that legacy time of meters use. I get the impression that of the various "beta" tariffs that Octopus offer this might be the "most beta" and I have my doubts as to how well it will work in practice - time will tell.

Thanks as well to @WiserMiser - the point of this thread is really to encourage people to think about the longer term and have some sort of thoughts / plan together for what to do when the time comes. So the more thoughts and comments anyone can throw into the pot the better. But I'd reiterate - let's keep this as a "what are we going to do about it" thread rather than an "it should or shouldn't be happening thread".

By the way, kudos to @Rosie1001 for persevering and getting EDF to set up E10. Again, might be the best option for some but I see it very much a way of buying time rather than solving the issue. Like it or not E10 is on the way out.

Scot_39

mmmmikey said:

Either

(a) Buy secondhand High Heat Retention (HHR) storage heaters on eBay.

Whatever you think about the rights and wrongs of it (and I'm hoping we can avoid having that discussion here) the writing is on the wall for Economy 10 and other complex tariffs such as THTC. It's becoming increasingly difficult to find suppliers who offer these tariffs and it seems likely that will continue and only get harder. Even if you do manage to find a supplier and jump through all the hoops, you're restricted by choice which limits competition and keeps prices higher than they might other be.

An approach to consider here is to upgrade any old style storage heaters to modern High Heat Retention alternatives (such as Dimplex Quantum or Elnur HHR). Because these are very much better at keeping the heat "in the box" until you want it, the need for the afternoon boost largely goes away and modern heaters work well with Economy 7 or whatever smart tariff may eventually replace it.

You don't need to change all your heaters at once, you can start with the one you rely on most. If you buy the replacements secondhand off eBay, you can pick them up for very much less than the new price (I paid about £200 each for Elnur HHR heaters) and they're likely to have years (or maybe decades!) of life left in them. They do need setting up differently to get the timings right but this is easily achieved.

Lots of ifs, buts and possible maybes but you may well find that going down this route saves you money very quickly as well as relieving you of the ongoing hassle of finding an E10 supplier.

If you want to explore this option, and have any questions just ask, plenty of folk here who will be able to help.

Or

(b) Start saving for a new heating system.

I'm sure the heckles will rise at this suggestion (nobody wants to spend money replacing something that is working fine), but sooner or later and regardless whether you think it is right or wrong you're going to have to face the reality that E10 etc. are on their way out (and again let's not have the debate here about the rights and wrongs of it all). Well worth trying to put some money aside each year if you possibly can (and if not, worth checking out what grants are available in your area).

......

Obviously very much a personal choice as to what to do, but much better IMHO, to have a plan rather than sit back and wait for the problem to hit you....

Thoughts?

There is a third option

Snug Octopus if have or old supplier forces you off of legacy tariff and meters and fits suitable smets2 meter.

6 hr overnight (with a user cap choice below that) + 1 afternoon - might be sufficient for many - without the high expense of upgrading to HHR heating.

Even if get them second hand - there are still issues around wiring - as many old NSH only operate off of restricted feed only - whereas at least the Dimplex - either need 24.7 - or both 24.7 and restricted.

Phones4Chris

mmmmikey said:

By the way, kudos to @Rosie1001 for persevering and getting EDF to set up E10. Again, might be the best option for some but I see it very much a way of buying time rather than solving the issue. Like it or not E10 is on the way out.

I suggest people on E10 and not yet on Smart Meters complain to OFGEM about the majority of suppliers, even those currently having an E10 non-smart tariff, are finding it impossible or extremely difficult to get E10 on a Smart meter. There are millions of people on E10 whose installations will not work satisfactorily on E7.
E10 is a perfectly viable tariff on a smart meter.

Qyburn

WiserMiser said:

E10 and similar tariffs date back to when electricity cost peanuts and the cheap hours were genuinely off peak rather than only overnight.  

Expectations were lower as well. One of those THTC tariffs for example had the expectation that storage heaters would maintain room temperatures of 14°C or above. You used direct heat, at the same cheap rate, to manually heat an individual room if you felt the need.

Virtually everyone now expects far higher room temperatures. Remember it used to be illegal to heat commercial premises above 19°C. That was before everyone lost interest in energy saving.

distefano

WiserMiser said:

E10 and similar tariffs date back to when electricity cost peanuts and the cheap hours were genuinely off peak rather than only overnight.  The heaters were fairly wasteful because they leaked heat when it wasn't needed, e.g. overnight and during the day if you were out at work or the weather was mild.  However, people weren't too concerned because it was affordable and nice to be toasty at all times, e.g. if you had to get up in the night.

However, things are very different today and an old box of bricks with only a mechanical flap to control the output wastes a lot of money.  If your own the property and plan to stay a reasonable time it's worth considering upgrading to HHR NSHs.  They'll also make it easier to sell when the time comes: buyers didn't pay much attention to the type of heating system as long as it did the job and wasn't falling apart, but now they're much more critical.

My Economy 10 heats my whole house by underfloor heating not storage heaters. I do not understand why Smart Meters cannot be scheduled to heat up at the known off peak periods such as night time [as recommended for car charging] and afternoons - I've had Economy 10 for 50 years and want any new Smart Meter to deliver the same

mmmmikey

distefano said:

WiserMiser said:

E10 and similar tariffs date back to when electricity cost peanuts and the cheap hours were genuinely off peak rather than only overnight.  The heaters were fairly wasteful because they leaked heat when it wasn't needed, e.g. overnight and during the day if you were out at work or the weather was mild.  However, people weren't too concerned because it was affordable and nice to be toasty at all times, e.g. if you had to get up in the night.

However, things are very different today and an old box of bricks with only a mechanical flap to control the output wastes a lot of money.  If your own the property and plan to stay a reasonable time it's worth considering upgrading to HHR NSHs.  They'll also make it easier to sell when the time comes: buyers didn't pay much attention to the type of heating system as long as it did the job and wasn't falling apart, but now they're much more critical.

My Economy 10 heats my whole house by underfloor heating not storage heaters. I do not understand why Smart Meters cannot be scheduled to heat up at the known off peak periods such as night time [as recommended for car charging] and afternoons - I've had Economy 10 for 50 years and want any new Smart Meter to deliver the same

Hi,

The principle difference between the legacy time of use metering systems like Economy 10 and so on is that with those systems the meter doesn't just record usage at different times, it actually switches the appliances on and off. There are plenty of smart tarriffs that offer much the same as Economy 10, either on a fixed schedule or dynamic schedule where the times change each day. The number and range of these is quickly increasing and have the advantage that you don't need a dedicated meter to use them, which makes shopping around and changing between tariffs straightforward. 

The catch is that the smart meter is more limited in it's ability to switch the appliances on and off, but that is easy enough to resolve by installing your own timeswitch, which should be fairly inexpensive in the general scale of things. 

I think you have to accept that 50 years is a fair innings for a metering technology and that things do change with time. All you need to do is spend £100 or £200 on a timeswitch & installation and you should be good to go for another 50 years. You'll quite possibly recover your investment in the first year through the ability to shop around for a better tariff. If you're not sure how to get started with this, just ask.

I'm so confident that you'll show a profit from changing to a smart meter, that if, after another 50 years you find yourself out of pocket I will pay the difference (subject, of course to the condition that you write to me yourself).

Hope this helps, Mike

Spoonie_Turtle

distefano said:

WiserMiser said:

E10 and similar tariffs date back to when electricity cost peanuts and the cheap hours were genuinely off peak rather than only overnight.  The heaters were fairly wasteful because they leaked heat when it wasn't needed, e.g. overnight and during the day if you were out at work or the weather was mild.  However, people weren't too concerned because it was affordable and nice to be toasty at all times, e.g. if you had to get up in the night.

However, things are very different today and an old box of bricks with only a mechanical flap to control the output wastes a lot of money.  If your own the property and plan to stay a reasonable time it's worth considering upgrading to HHR NSHs.  They'll also make it easier to sell when the time comes: buyers didn't pay much attention to the type of heating system as long as it did the job and wasn't falling apart, but now they're much more critical.

My Economy 10 heats my whole house by underfloor heating not storage heaters. I do not understand why Smart Meters cannot be scheduled to heat up at the known off peak periods such as night time [as recommended for car charging] and afternoons - I've had Economy 10 for 50 years and want any new Smart Meter to deliver the same

Suppliers most certainly could bill at traditional Economy 10 times using smart meters, it's a business decision not to.  Economy 7 - overnight off-peak - is still widely available, and in fact suppliers could bill at 48 different half-hourly prices if they wished, such as on Octopus' Agile tariff.

(Although the actual peaks and off-peaks may be slightly different now than they used to be, with different generating capabilities and different demands on a national scale than 50 years ago.)

But OP did say they didn't want to get into the rights and wrongs.  I just think it's important you know that it's not a smart meter limitation, it's a supplier decision not to offer Economy 10.

mmmmikey

Spoonie_Turtle said:

distefano said:

WiserMiser said:

E10 and similar tariffs date back to when electricity cost peanuts and the cheap hours were genuinely off peak rather than only overnight.  The heaters were fairly wasteful because they leaked heat when it wasn't needed, e.g. overnight and during the day if you were out at work or the weather was mild.  However, people weren't too concerned because it was affordable and nice to be toasty at all times, e.g. if you had to get up in the night.

However, things are very different today and an old box of bricks with only a mechanical flap to control the output wastes a lot of money.  If your own the property and plan to stay a reasonable time it's worth considering upgrading to HHR NSHs.  They'll also make it easier to sell when the time comes: buyers didn't pay much attention to the type of heating system as long as it did the job and wasn't falling apart, but now they're much more critical.

My Economy 10 heats my whole house by underfloor heating not storage heaters. I do not understand why Smart Meters cannot be scheduled to heat up at the known off peak periods such as night time [as recommended for car charging] and afternoons - I've had Economy 10 for 50 years and want any new Smart Meter to deliver the same

Suppliers most certainly could bill at traditional Economy 10 times using smart meters, it's a business decision not to.  Economy 7 - overnight off-peak - is still widely available, and in fact suppliers could bill at 48 different half-hourly prices if they wished, such as on Octopus' Agile tariff.

(Although the actual peaks and off-peaks may be slightly different now than they used to be, with different generating capabilities and different demands on a national scale than 50 years ago.)

But OP did say they didn't want to get into the rights and wrongs.  I just think it's important you know that it's not a smart meter limitation, it's a supplier decision not to offer Economy 10.

Thanks, you make a good point, as does @Phones4Chris. This isn't really a technical issue, Economy 10 uses the same technology as Economy 7 which is supported on smart meters so there's no reason that Economy 10 couldn't be as well. @Phones4Chris suggests one possible way forward would be to complain to Ofgem about this. I'd suggest though that you keep in mind that, as things stand today, Economy 10 is most definitely on the way out so it would probably be good to have a back up plan. What I wanted to avoid here is using this thread as a BMW session about the demise of E10 with all the usual complaints about Ofgem, smart meters, and so on, and focus instead on practical options to dealing with things (of which there are many and won't necessarily end up costing more).

This thread is to encourage people to have some sort of plan and share ideas for what that might be. That could be a conscious decision to do nothing and hold on to E10 as long as possible. There's a difference between being aware that E10 is on the way out and being prepared for that to happen than just burying your head in the sand then moaning about it when the time comes.