Neighbours Right of Access to Maintain their Property

Northernsoul123

HampshireH said:

Northernsoul123 said:

When we moved in the wife came round and said "Can we use your driveway?" I was a bit taken aback and said, "What, do you mean temporarily?" and I noticed what seemed like a look of annoyance. She then said, "We are laying paving on the front garden and are not supposed to walk on it for a few days." I said yeah, that's fine then so long as it's temporary - I thought you meant ongoing and laughed. So for a few days they were walking down our drive and cutting through into their back garden.
A couple of weeks later I noticed there was soil all down our driveway. I realised the neighbours must have been using our drive when we were out rather than going through their house. A week or two later we came home to find they had been clearing out and weeding the gutter i.e. had again been on our drive.
I looked in to this and was surprised to find that they do indeed have a legal right now to come onto our drive to maintain their new extension and I find it rather unfair that the law allows this because someone has been so selfish as to build right up to the boundary. They should however be asking us for permission and only using it for essential maintenance. They haven't asked us at all and this is what in particular I find out of order. They appear to have used up their own driveway and now want to access ours. 
 

But they did ask and you did give permission.

Perhaps what you thought was quite clear wasn't to them

Have you actually spoken to them since and discussed this and reaffirmed your stance

No I clearly stated to them that I was only giving permission for access while the paving in their front garden was being sorted. 

pinkshoes

Northernsoul123 said:

Hi all,
We moved to a new house last year - a semi-detached with drive to side. The neighbours had built an extension to their house a couple of years before we moved in; their extension takes up their entire drive running alongside ours so they can now only access their garden through their house. We found it surprising they had built the extension right up to maybe 4 inches from the boundary line and then the 4 inches was a drainage gutter on the ground so that goes right to the actual boundary. Their back garden currently is a tip following the building of the extension and it currently has no fence to the side so is open to our drive. 
We had said to each other once moved in that we did not see how they were going to maintain this guttering as they had left no space to do so on their own land. Our solicitor had never raised anything though during purchase.
When we moved in the wife came round and said "Can we use your driveway?" I was a bit taken aback and said, "What, do you mean temporarily?" and I noticed what seemed like a look of annoyance. She then said, "We are laying paving on the front garden and are not supposed to walk on it for a few days." I said yeah, that's fine then so long as it's temporary - I thought you meant ongoing and laughed. So for a few days they were walking down our drive and cutting through into their back garden.
A couple of weeks later I noticed there was soil all down our driveway. I realised the neighbours must have been using our drive when we were out rather than going through their house. A week or two later we came home to find they had been clearing out and weeding the gutter i.e. had again been on our drive.
I looked in to this and was surprised to find that they do indeed have a legal right now to come onto our drive to maintain their new extension and I find it rather unfair that the law allows this because someone has been so selfish as to build right up to the boundary. They should however be asking us for permission and only using it for essential maintenance. They haven't asked us at all and this is what in particular I find out of order. They appear to have used up their own driveway and now want to access ours. 
We know we can refuse access and force them to seek a court order which we believe will be granted in their favour but they may also be then told to pay us compensation. However, this will then show as a dispute should we re-sell. 
How would you deal with this? We can block the access from their back garden with a fence and intend to do so but this won't stop them coming through the front to do whatever they see fit to the side of the extension and guttering. Guessing we should just confront them and say please ask our permission before coming on to our drive?
And should our solicitor not have told us about this when we purchased the house? I can't help feeling this has in some way damaged the saleability of our property if it comes up with a prospective buyer, "Oh and the neighbours will be coming onto your drive periodically to do maintenance work." It seems unfair this is allowed by law.

How did you find this out now but not when purchasing? Is this clause something that was written into your own deeds when the neighbour built the extension? Did the previous owner agree to this?

Can you sketch the layout?

ow are they able to get into their back garden from your drive? Is there no fence?

I'd be putting up a fence with a locked gate, so if they wish to have permission for essential maintenance, then they can come and ask. 

Northernsoul123

WIAWSNB said:

Northernsoul123 said:

Hi all,
We moved to a new house last year - a semi-detached with drive to side. The neighbours had built an extension to their house a couple of years before we moved in; their extension takes up their entire drive running alongside ours so they can now only access their garden through their house. We found it surprising they had built the extension right up to maybe 4 inches from the boundary line and then the 4 inches was a drainage gutter on the ground so that goes right to the actual boundary. Their back garden currently is a tip following the building of the extension and it currently has no fence to the side so is open to our drive. 
We had said to each other once moved in that we did not see how they were going to maintain this guttering as they had left no space to do so on their own land. Our solicitor had never raised anything though during purchase.
When we moved in the wife came round and said "Can we use your driveway?" I was a bit taken aback and said, "What, do you mean temporarily?" and I noticed what seemed like a look of annoyance. She then said, "We are laying paving on the front garden and are not supposed to walk on it for a few days." I said yeah, that's fine then so long as it's temporary - I thought you meant ongoing and laughed. So for a few days they were walking down our drive and cutting through into their back garden.
A couple of weeks later I noticed there was soil all down our driveway. I realised the neighbours must have been using our drive when we were out rather than going through their house. A week or two later we came home to find they had been clearing out and weeding the gutter i.e. had again been on our drive.
I looked in to this and was surprised to find that they do indeed have a legal right now to come onto our drive to maintain their new extension and I find it rather unfair that the law allows this because someone has been so selfish as to build right up to the boundary. They should however be asking us for permission and only using it for essential maintenance. They haven't asked us at all and this is what in particular I find out of order. They appear to have used up their own driveway and now want to access ours. 
We know we can refuse access and force them to seek a court order which we believe will be granted in their favour but they may also be then told to pay us compensation. However, this will then show as a dispute should we re-sell. 
How would you deal with this? We can block the access from their back garden with a fence and intend to do so but this won't stop them coming through the front to do whatever they see fit to the side of the extension and guttering. Guessing we should just confront them and say please ask our permission before coming on to our drive?
And should our solicitor not have told us about this when we purchased the house? I can't help feeling this has in some way damaged the saleability of our property if it comes up with a prospective buyer, "Oh and the neighbours will be coming onto your drive periodically to do maintenance work." It seems unfair this is allowed by law.

Regarding your solicitor's responsibility, it should be obvious on the ground whether a house or extension is likely to require occasional access for maintenance via a neighbouring property. This is pretty common, should be rare, and is often two-way. So I cannot see the solicitor having been remiss here.
A potentially different case could be if your neighbour was 'expecting' to continue having access down your drive that your vendor allowed them, willingly or not. If your vendor knew that their neighbour very regularly sought access to clear this drain to the point of it being a pita, then I think they had an obligation to mention this in the TA6(?).
Having said that, tho', it sounds a borderline case.
Step 1, fit CCTV cameras to cover your property. Make them discrete if you wish.
Step 2, make it clear, in a recordable way, that they must seek permission every time they require access.
Step 3, examine whether they have any alternative method of clearing that gutter.

Step 4 - explain to us, please, what you actually mean by a drainage gutter :-) We may be able to assess whether they do need access in order to clear it. Any chance of a pic?

Oh, and asking them to not come over your land in order to gain access to their garden is not a 'dispute'. Should they continue to do so after you have evidenced telling them 'non', then you would need to take action to stop them. Triple-check you have Legal Protection included in your home insurance before starting anything.

If you do need to take action to stop them, then you need to take action to stop them. You don't let anything like this slide just because someone shouts 'dispute'.

Obvs you should balance what's reasonable, but if you say 'non' to non-essential access as is your right, or allow it based on it being requested each time, and they fail to comply, they need stopping.

 

Thank you - a very helpful response. We are already planning to put up a camera.
The gutter (or maybe I should have called it a drain) goes along the edge of the neighbours extension on the ground and along the boundary line between both of our houses. There is no way to access it from their side at all to clear it of weeds or debris. My partner was thinking about what would happen if we decided to put a fence along the boundary on our side to block off their garden but then running right along adjacent to the extension and then to the road. All on our own land and nobody could stop us doing this but the neighbours would no longer have any access at all to their drain. I think they would be very angry if we did this but we would have every right to, the same as they had to do as they pleased. This is why it seems so strange to me that someone can build a structure knowing they can't maintain it without having to go onto another person's land. Yes, I know it is allowed but to me it's like, "I have now used up every centimetre of my drive, hence I have given myself a legal right to come onto yours." It just seems a recipe for problems, especially if the person who does it then doesn't appreciate they are supposed to ask first and not just start using the other person's drive as and when they feel like it. Hence why, if it did end up in court ever I understand the court would ask them to pay us compensation. I just don't want to go down that route.

Northernsoul123

donutandbeer said:

How would the solicitor have known the neighbour built an extension really close to the boundary..? Solicitors don’t visit properties. It’s your responsibility to spot it when viewing the house and to ask your solicitor to enquire about it.

Yes who would know what to look at if they haven’t been stung before? The endless nightmare of housing!

Because the solicitor obtains detailed plans of all of the environs of the house you are purchasing and also does searches to see whether there is anything detailed re planning applications on council records?
Agreed - we never even considered this at all when viewing the property. It never crossed our minds. And to be honest it is not really a massive issue; in the end if it continues we will have to have a conversation with the neighbours. I just wondered how other people would deal with this and it has been very interesting reading the replies. We want to remain on good terms with the neighbours but I don't consider people watching and figuring what times you are out at work and then coming onto your property when you're out is very neighbourly.

Northernsoul123

Bigphil1474 said:

Presumably , once the fence is on the back garden, they'd only need to access your drive to maintain the drain that's there? Would you want to do it? It's likely to affect you as much as them, so don't see the benefit of stopping them coming round to clean it every now and then. 

Agreed. But it would be nice if they asked could they come and do that. Just polite IMO.

Northernsoul123

Elliott.T123 said:

Northernsoul123 said:

Thanks for your replies.
Yes it is our drive.
I was under the impression solicitors should inform you of anything which might impact your decision on whether or not to purchase a property.
In all of the houses I have ever lived in (10 or so) I have never once had a neighbour want to access my land for any reason - guess I have just been lucky then if it is so normal! Wouldn't you expect them to at least ask first? As I say, that's not really the only problem; they are using the drive as if it is their own. The locked front gate is a good idea but would make it difficult for other visitors/couriers etc.
A fence will be going up to block off the garden.

The solicitor wouldn't have specifically made you aware of the right to access for maintenance because that is a standard law covering all properties (with a few special exceptions I am sure).

The neighbours do not have the right to use your driveway as regular access for their garden to do some weeding, to carry heavy bags etc. That does not count as essential maintenance. What they can do is use your driveway to access the wall if it needs repointing, to access the gutters or sofits to repair / replace.

The types of jobs that should be covered are things that you would expect maybe once a year or so at most potentially less.

We have neighbours with a wall on the boundary, they have been round 3 times in 5 years, all in the space of a month due to a leak they had. This was found, fixed and they haven't been back since (except on social visits, we get on well!) 

Yes, this would be absolutely no problem at all. Unfortunately the drain/gutter they have built regularly gets blocked with leaves and so on and has weeds growing up through it. We haven't been here very long and they have had to come and clear it; presumably this will be a regular thing.

Northernsoul123

Herzlos said:

The neighbourly dispute is likely to have a bigger impact on selling than the occasional wheelbarrow, and it's probably better they did it whilst you were out and least inconvenienced. They should have cleaned up a bit though.

Technically, they only have access for maintenance that they can't use an alternative route for, and should be clearing it with you first. But given you're both going to be living next to each other for years, is it really worth starting a petty civil war over?

Do they have a plan to install a fence once the work is done?

Not sure on their plans for a fence but I presume they will put one up eventually. We can put one up ourselves though anyway - our last house had 2 fences along the boundary installed by previous owners. The thing is, I don't really feel we are the ones who should be accused of being petty or of starting anything. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I have manners and I just wouldn't go into a neighbours garden or start doing handyman jobs on their drive without at the very least asking them if that would be ok. I do realise from the responses though that some people think that's perfectly normal.

Northernsoul123

Ksw3 said:

have you spoken to them again? 

Not yet, no. I'm unsure whether to raise the subject and ask them to ask us for permission when they will be using our drive or just to try to secure our driveway with fence and gates and not mention it in the interests of harmony, hoping they will take the hint.

Northernsoul123

pinkshoes said:

Northernsoul123 said:

Hi all,
We moved to a new house last year - a semi-detached with drive to side. The neighbours had built an extension to their house a couple of years before we moved in; their extension takes up their entire drive running alongside ours so they can now only access their garden through their house. We found it surprising they had built the extension right up to maybe 4 inches from the boundary line and then the 4 inches was a drainage gutter on the ground so that goes right to the actual boundary. Their back garden currently is a tip following the building of the extension and it currently has no fence to the side so is open to our drive. 
We had said to each other once moved in that we did not see how they were going to maintain this guttering as they had left no space to do so on their own land. Our solicitor had never raised anything though during purchase.
When we moved in the wife came round and said "Can we use your driveway?" I was a bit taken aback and said, "What, do you mean temporarily?" and I noticed what seemed like a look of annoyance. She then said, "We are laying paving on the front garden and are not supposed to walk on it for a few days." I said yeah, that's fine then so long as it's temporary - I thought you meant ongoing and laughed. So for a few days they were walking down our drive and cutting through into their back garden.
A couple of weeks later I noticed there was soil all down our driveway. I realised the neighbours must have been using our drive when we were out rather than going through their house. A week or two later we came home to find they had been clearing out and weeding the gutter i.e. had again been on our drive.
I looked in to this and was surprised to find that they do indeed have a legal right now to come onto our drive to maintain their new extension and I find it rather unfair that the law allows this because someone has been so selfish as to build right up to the boundary. They should however be asking us for permission and only using it for essential maintenance. They haven't asked us at all and this is what in particular I find out of order. They appear to have used up their own driveway and now want to access ours. 
We know we can refuse access and force them to seek a court order which we believe will be granted in their favour but they may also be then told to pay us compensation. However, this will then show as a dispute should we re-sell. 
How would you deal with this? We can block the access from their back garden with a fence and intend to do so but this won't stop them coming through the front to do whatever they see fit to the side of the extension and guttering. Guessing we should just confront them and say please ask our permission before coming on to our drive?
And should our solicitor not have told us about this when we purchased the house? I can't help feeling this has in some way damaged the saleability of our property if it comes up with a prospective buyer, "Oh and the neighbours will be coming onto your drive periodically to do maintenance work." It seems unfair this is allowed by law.

How did you find this out now but not when purchasing? Is this clause something that was written into your own deeds when the neighbour built the extension? Did the previous owner agree to this?

Can you sketch the layout?

ow are they able to get into their back garden from your drive? Is there no fence?

I'd be putting up a fence with a locked gate, so if they wish to have permission for essential maintenance, then they can come and ask. 

I am very much of the same opinion of you; it seems strange the solicitor did not point this out. There is nothing in the deeds; it is a general legal right where the neighbour cannot access their building from their own land. The thing is though, they created this problem, it wasn't an existing one. By building to the boundary they knew they could not maintain their extension from their own land. 
The previous owners of our house would have had an opportunity to object but they didn't (it would show on planning docs if they had). It was built a couple of years before we moved in so we figure the last owners didn't want any dispute on record as they were going to sell.
There is currently no fence on their side at the back where the garden is. This must have been taken down when the extension was put up as we can see the old fence on Google Maps. They are doing up the back garden at the moment. 
Yes I agree we are going to have to put a fence up and a locked gate.

WIAWSNB

Pic of this drain, please?
Are you sure they cannot clean it from their side? Doesn't at least one end of this gully open up on their land? If so, why can't a long-handled rake of some sort be used? It may require a bespoke design, but it should be doable.
What sort of roof is on this extension?
What does this drain do? What would be the consequences of it not being cleared of leaves?
Bottom line - you can put a fence up in your land. Should a neighb then require legitimate access via that fence, then they'd have to remove the panels, and reinstate them afterwards - without damage.
Here's a pic from a 'DIY' forum thread. This new homeowner has the task of clearing out this narrow gap, and the option of taking down a brick wall for access is clearly a non-starter. Impossible, then? Of course not.
Very likely ditto for you.