British Debt Collection Company threatens with CCJ due to unpaid membership fees on German website

Sebastian83

Good morning,

I hope everyone is well.
I do have a bit of a tricky situation and don't really know where I stand legally.
I am German, but do live in the UK for several years.
A few years ago I have signed up on a German website for dog breeders, which offers a Premium membership, which I had for the last 3 years. A few months ago I did cancel the Premium membership on that website and didn't have heard anything back. A few weeks later I got a payment reminder, saying I have to pay for another year, as the terms and conditions state, I have to cancel 3 months before renewal, which I didn't. I did ignore this message, as I felt absolutely scammed by the website provider.
A few weeks later I couldn't access my account on that website anymore and instead could only see a message saying I haven't paid my membership fees and therefore a German debt collection agency has been given my debt to collect.
I didn't think much about it, as I thought there is nothing they can do, since I don't live in Germany.
Now 2 days ago I all of a sudden got this email to the email account I have signed up for on that website a few years ago:

So now I am a bit worried on one hand, as now all of a sudden a British debt collection company is contacting me, but on the other hand I don't quite understand how this can be, as we are talking about a German website, provided by a German company.
I also signed up on that website with my real name, but not with my real DOB and not my real address, as all these information can be seen by all other Premium members, which I wasn't comfortable with. Also the email address is only the email address of our dog kennel, but not my private email address, that I usually use.
Now since they didn't address me in that email with name and address it looks to me, as if they don't actually know anything about me. But then again I'm not sure if I want to take the risk of getting issued a CCJ over something silly like an unpaid membership fee.

I really would appreciate some advise here, thank you.

elsien

It would seem to be that yes foreign debts can be collected by UK courts after jumping through various hoops.
Have you checked to see whether any proceedings have happened in Germany at all?
Debt collectors have no legal power, so it’s also possible that they are threatening enforcement action, but the company will decide they can’t be bothered going through with it. Telling you that if you don’t pay up they will take court action doesn’t automatically follow that they will.

Although having said that, if you agreed to the terms and conditions to giving three months notice, it is not a scam for them to insist on that notice.
There seems to be an ever frequent list of people on here saying they’ve been scammed, when they simply haven’t read the terms and conditions that they’ve signed up to

fatbelly

I think this is on balance just an empty threat.

CLI should know that pre-action protocol in England requires a standard form to be issued with 30-day limit, and if you were to get one, this is how you reply

https://debtcamel.co.uk/letter-before-claim-ccj/

Now it is possible to start a court claim without following protocol but a judge would take that into account.

CLI do not state how they propose to start a claim when they are not the creditor, as their letter admits.

There is also the matter of whether they would really pay the upfront court costs to try to get an English ccj for a £109 debt that is owed to someone who may well leave the country

It all seems a bit unlikely

Aylesbury_Duck

Where's the scam?  You signed up to something, breached the terms and conditions of the agreement and the company is owed the money.  Or is there more to it?

I don't think they're going to be able to collect what looks like a genuine debt, but on the basis of what you've described, it certainly isn't a scam.  If anything, it's you that's scammed them!

Sebastian83

Just for clarification, I can't remember I've said I have been scammed?
I said, at the time I felt absolutely scammed and I did explain the reasons for it.
I did cancel my premium membership on the website and didn't hear anything back, but have completely been ignored for months.
Only on the day of the new annual subscription fee being due I have gotten a payment reminder, which was about 6 weeks after having cancelled my membership and have been informed that I shall pay for another year.
Also, who on earth reads a 20 page long T&C document when signing up on a website?

daveyjp

If the debt is accepted, but you feel you were scammed and didn't receive what you were paying for (you have 20 pages of terms and conditions to trawl through to make out your case) pay under duress and take action to recover what you have paid.

born_again

If they were serious it would have arrived in the post.
So unless they know your address, then no one is going to turn up on your doorstep & even if they did. They have no power to do anything.
Only court instructed bailiffs can do that.

Voyager2002

Just to clarify: you said that you wrote to the website to cancel your membership, and heard nothing back.

Was that more than three months from the end of your membership?

And in any case, was the requirement to give three months' notice of cancellation part of the terms that you agreed when you joined, or something new that they introduced later?

(In the unlikely event that it went to court, these are questions that the judge would consider before deciding whether you actually owed anything.)

sourcrates

A quite convincing attempt to obtain payment from you, however fatbelly has noted the flaws in their email, including the fact emails don`t count as acceptable communications for the pre-action protocol, it has to be sent in written form, in a letter, more on that later.

And as they are not the creditor, again as fatbelly points out, it would be interesting to see how they intend to pull this off.

Also love the part about the doorstep collection agent, as if the thought of a CCJ was not convincing enough, they thrust the knife in deeper with the threat of a knock on the door, very nice!!

The deal breaker here is they don`t have your address, so they can`t issue legal papers to you, and a judgement can`t be recorded without a name and an address, its possible they could do a trace, but as a German citizen in England, you might not be easy to find.

DullGreyGuy

fatbelly said:

CLI should know that pre-action protocol in England requires a standard form to be issued with 30-day limit

Show me in the CPR where it says a standard form must be sent or that it must be a 30 day time limit?

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/small-claims/Problems-with-goods---letter-before-court-action/

Remember that this is a breach of contract not regulated lending/debt, even the CAB advise in their sample letter to give a 14 days response time and no suggestion of including a standard form. This website is exactly the same as CAB

ManyWays

DullGreyGuy said:

Show me in the CPR where it says a standard form must be sent or that it must be a 30 day time limit?

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/small-claims/Problems-with-goods---letter-before-court-action/

Remember that this is a breach of contract not regulated lending/debt, even the CAB advise in their sample letter to give a 14 days response time and no suggestion of including a standard form. This website is exactly the same as CAB

It is in the specific Pre Action Protocol for Debt https://www.justice.gov.uk/documents/debt-pap.pdf

"This Protocol applies to any business (including sole traders and public bodies) claiming payment of a debt from an individual (including a sole trader)"

It does not apply to an individual trying to sue another individual or a business, which is why it isn't mentioned by Citizens Advice when they are giving a sample letter for a customer to send to a trader.