PCP Finance: Low deposit or high deposit, which is the most sensible?

prowla

caprimad said:

prowla said:

ididgetwhereiamtoday said:

prowla said:

I've bought cars on PCP and the transaction, payments, and bubble all went to plan.

However, were I to go for an EV (unlikely, as I don't have a place to charge it) I would likely consider a lease arrangement.

I still don't think that EV lifespans are in the same league as ICEs, so leasing absolves you of responsibility for that.

You are correct. EVs lifespan will probably be a lot longer than ICE cars. 

Haha - good game!

What empirical evidence do you have to support that assertion (ie. that "EVs lifespan will probably be a lot longer than ICE cars")?

It's too soon for there to be sufficient empirical evidence to say that with 100% certainty (which, I suspect, is why the poster you're replying to said "probably".

From a mechanical POV - s/he's absolutely correct: There are considerably fewer moving parts on an EV compared to any ICE vehicle (by several orders of magnitude); it doesn't need regular oil changes, you can run it flat out from cold and it's not an issue, there's no gearbox (or if there is, it's an extremely simple one) to jam up or crunch, or wear the brake bands out etc. Mechanically, it's a motor or two (or up to 4), possibly a single-speed reduction gearbox, a differential or two, and that's essentially it.

The big IF with BEVs was always the battery. And yes, very early EVs like the Leaf and the Zoe suffered - just like laptops - with horrendous battery degradation. But that's a thing of the past, with most BEVs made in the last 10 or so years seeing far less degradation than was expected - even by the optimists. Not that it stops the haters from claiming any second hand BEV "will need a new £100,000 battery pack because it'll be knackered".

As for the rest of the electronics, the fancy dashboards, dozens of computers etc - they'll likely be the same as the petrol/diesel counterparts - except that many of them will not be in a hot, oily and electrically noisy environment to shorten their lifespans. The ones that live outside in the mud and salt.... yeah, they'll be just as fragile as anything else.

tl;dr: There's literally no reason NOT to expect a BEV to significantly out-last a petrol/diesel car; and there's no reason to suspect it'll need a new battery pack until long after the bits that fail the same way on ICE cars (bodywork, for example) are sending it to the scrapyard.

Well, I said "In my opinion" and the response was that I was correct... :-)

But the point you pick up on is that EV lifespans are projected; we'll have to see how things pan-out.

And the other point I made was that leasing means it's not your problem.

Me, I'm not a "hater"; it's just that an EV is an impractical option for me for the forseeable future.

DrEskimo

caprimad said:

DrEskimo said:

caprimad said:

Buying now (new OR used) is, IMHO again, a mug's game.

Not sure I agree, having bought my second used EV.

(Rest of you post snipped just for brevity)

Fair comment. I should, perhaps, be a bit less rude about buyers of s/h EVs....! After all, I likely will be one, one day!

Basically, I reckon in 10 years time - to pluck a random figure out of the air - BEVs will be going further, faster, and with more "geopolitically correct" batteries (no more allegedly child-labour-extracted-cobalt or slave-labour-mined-lithium) which will also be cheaper per kWh and (by then) likely produced using renewable-generated electricity: i.e. all the Guardianista credentials you could shake a stick at.

I'm going to be honest as well: My MG was only the second brand new car I've ever had. The first was an Audi A4 way back in 1999, and that was a terrible experience (it burned LOTS of oil right from new, the gearbox once jammed in reverse whilst I was doing a 3-point turn on a surprisingly busy road, and the battery karked it a week before the lease was up). The MG, on the other hand, spoiled me hugely. And bear in mind, when I bought it in 2023, it was almost impossible to buy a 2nd hand MG4, so new was the only option.  Similarly, looking at the Vauxhall Grandland - the old one was ugly; the new one (of which none are usefully available 2nd hand, i.e. at a decent discount) looks much better. Can't comment on how the old one drives, as I never drove one. The new one is pretty good though.

Honestly, nothing I've driven beats my old 2001 Jag XJR.... but that's sitting, broken, in the driveway... waiting for me to get A Round Tuit. (to fixing it). I'll keep that as my weekend fun car, and take the better EV the rest of the time.

I think this gets the heart of it - when leasing you go for the deal and not the car, and I am pretty particular about what car I want to drive! It also doesn't help that I do around 1,000-1,200 miles/month..

caprimad said:

DrEskimo said:

With my current EV ... Model S Performance

PS: Great choice! Of all the Teslas, IMHO that's the least ugly one, and predates their attempt to digitise the driving experience to death (indicator buttons on the steering wheel? Really?)

Did you get one with free supercharging for life? IMHO, if I were to buy one (might get one for the wife....) that'd be the one to get.

Very much agree! Model 3's were much cheaper but just not a good looking car, and certainly not as practical. It was between a Model S, E-Tron GT or Taycan, and the price and ongoing servicing costs, and access to Tesla Superchargers made me go with the Model S.

It's not got free supercharging no. Free supercharging stopped around 2016, so there are only a handful of facelift Model S's that come with it.

I went with the latest UK version nicked named the 'Raven' that was built between 2019-2020, as it has updated motors and other bits that I knew were updated from the original facelift that tend to wear out. They never built a RHD update (Plaid), which is a shame, as the updated interior looks much nicer (ignoring the stupid indicators on the steering wheel problem...).

caprimad

DrEskimo said:

caprimad said:

DrEskimo said:

caprimad said:

Buying now (new OR used) is, IMHO again, a mug's game.

Not sure I agree, having bought my second used EV.

(Rest of you post snipped just for brevity)

Fair comment. I should, perhaps, be a bit less rude about buyers of s/h EVs....! After all, I likely will be one, one day!

Basically, I reckon in 10 years time - to pluck a random figure out of the air - BEVs will be going further, faster, and with more "geopolitically correct" batteries (no more allegedly child-labour-extracted-cobalt or slave-labour-mined-lithium) which will also be cheaper per kWh and (by then) likely produced using renewable-generated electricity: i.e. all the Guardianista credentials you could shake a stick at.

I'm going to be honest as well: My MG was only the second brand new car I've ever had. The first was an Audi A4 way back in 1999, and that was a terrible experience (it burned LOTS of oil right from new, the gearbox once jammed in reverse whilst I was doing a 3-point turn on a surprisingly busy road, and the battery karked it a week before the lease was up). The MG, on the other hand, spoiled me hugely. And bear in mind, when I bought it in 2023, it was almost impossible to buy a 2nd hand MG4, so new was the only option.  Similarly, looking at the Vauxhall Grandland - the old one was ugly; the new one (of which none are usefully available 2nd hand, i.e. at a decent discount) looks much better. Can't comment on how the old one drives, as I never drove one. The new one is pretty good though.

Honestly, nothing I've driven beats my old 2001 Jag XJR.... but that's sitting, broken, in the driveway... waiting for me to get A Round Tuit. (to fixing it). I'll keep that as my weekend fun car, and take the better EV the rest of the time.

I think this gets the heart of it - when leasing you go for the deal and not the car, and I am pretty particular about what car I want to drive! It also doesn't help that I do around 1,000-1,200 miles/month..

caprimad said:

DrEskimo said:

With my current EV ... Model S Performance

PS: Great choice! Of all the Teslas, IMHO that's the least ugly one, and predates their attempt to digitise the driving experience to death (indicator buttons on the steering wheel? Really?)

Did you get one with free supercharging for life? IMHO, if I were to buy one (might get one for the wife....) that'd be the one to get.

Very much agree! Model 3's were much cheaper but just not a good looking car, and certainly not as practical. It was between a Model S, E-Tron GT or Taycan, and the price and ongoing servicing costs, and access to Tesla Superchargers made me go with the Model S.

It's not got free supercharging no. Free supercharging stopped around 2016, so there are only a handful of facelift Model S's that come with it.

I went with the latest UK version nicked named the 'Raven' that was built between 2019-2020, as it has updated motors and other bits that I knew were updated from the original facelift that tend to wear out. They never built a RHD update (Plaid), which is a shame, as the updated interior looks much nicer (ignoring the stupid indicators on the steering wheel problem...).

So one of the things that surprised me was just how close the lease quotes were on three fairly different cars: The Granddadland, Ionic 5 (2025 version) & MG S5. The S5 worked out cheapest - which is nice because it was (by a hair) the car I would have chosen even if I were paying cash. So yeah, I got lucky - the car I wanted was also the one that worked best on lease...

DrEskimo said:

Very much agree! Model 3's were much cheaper but just not a good looking car, and certainly not as practical. It was between a Model S, E-Tron GT or Taycan, and the price and ongoing servicing costs, and access to Tesla Superchargers made me go with the Model S.

It's not got free supercharging no. Free supercharging stopped around 2016, so there are only a handful of facelift Model S's that come with it.

I went with the latest UK version nicked named the 'Raven' that was built between 2019-2020, as it has updated motors and other bits that I knew were updated from the original facelift that tend to wear out. They never built a RHD update (Plaid), which is a shame, as the updated interior looks much nicer (ignoring the stupid indicators on the steering wheel problem...).

I'd certainly consider a Model S: but I've never seriously looked at them, so all of the bits you mention I'd have to find out... Same story with the Jag XJR to be honest - did a LOT of research to come to the conclusion that anything pre-2001 had several serious engine design faults which might have been sorted in its past... but better to get a 2001+ model where the issues were sorted in the factory.

I also got to look at a Cyberster in the flesh.... being the wrong side of the mid-century old, it's exactly the sort of car I want - utterly impractical and stupidly shouty in banana yellow, electric scissor doors & a long bonnet for no obvious reason.... I have a bad case of the wants...

caprimad

Mildly_Miffed said:

Well, that's all lovely - but we're talking about buying a new car versus using a pre-existing one.

Also, don't forget that three-quarters of world production of lithium cells is NOT used for automotive purposes. They're used for everything else rechargeable, from disposable vapes to laptops to drills to vacuums to torches to doorbells to...

According to Statistica (so... suspect) - 80% of global production of Li-ion cells are destined for EVs, and 60% of annual lithium sales are for EV cells...

That will start to change as solid-state batteries and sodium batteries gain traction.

Mildly_Miffed said:

Not to mention the horrible inefficiencies which mean a fuel cell EV uses three times the electricity of a battery one.

The ONLY benefit of hydrogen is that it's quick to refuel. Which is just as well, really, given how that inefficiency means it needs so much more of it. Plus the weight of the pressure vessel, the leak-off when unused, etc etc.

Yeah, I'm no fan of H2 fuel cells for cars. Where H2 will likely make the most impact is shipping - boats which can carry boatloads (sorry) of H2, have massive fuel cells, and the by products of fresh water & heat are both useful on a ship. It may also end up being useful for larger road vehicles - lorries & long-distance buses, although IMHO the jury's still out on that one. The Aussies are experimenting with battery-swaps for trucks, rather than re-charging in situ.

AIUI pressurised H2 doesn't need to leak off (liquified H2, if not kept cryogenically cold, does); biggest problem with H2 is it'll leak out of almost everything, and it even "soaks into" metal causing hydrogen embrittlement (although that may only apply to liquid H2). Not to mention the huge amounts of energy required to generate proper green H2, since electrolysis is the only viable option.