Estranged father died suddenly intestate - don't want to deal with estate or probate

gemmareld1999

Thanks everyone, you've given me a lot to think about. My uncle wants to arrange a funeral so between us we can manage that even if there's nothing in the bank.

As far as the house goes I think I might have to get some legal advice.

I've also been given an interim death certificate from the coroner's office as cause of death is still undetermined and it will take weeks to get blood sample results back, along with the 'Tell us Once' service reference number. Would it be counted as intermeddling if I were to inform the government departments and utilities companies he owes debts to about his death?

This is as far as I'm willing to take my duty to be honest. Thanks again for your comments.

RAS

Tell us Once prevents further complications.

As above, it is reasonable to tell the utilities that your father has died, that no-one is administering the estate and it's unclear if the estate is solvent. We'd usually suggest offering the carrier bag of paperwork saved from the house but that may have been skipped?

Don't give them contact details, use care of his house, although they can trace you via the death certificate.

Make sure the CT department knows as well, on the same basis. 

msa1204

You could sell the house by auction , without doing anything to it. Is the easiest way of selling a property in poor condition.

madbadrob

Keep_pedalling said:

Sea_Shell said:

FlorayG said:

I think you've already taken responsibility by starting to do things ( like contacting a cleaning company).
The good news is, you aren't responsible for his debts, so if the estate won't cover costs then you don't have to pay

I doubt that counts as intermeddling?

AIUI you don't HAVE to do anything.   

But, if you have arranged the funeral, you will be expected to pay for it, initially, unless you can present an invoice to his bank, (assuming any funds within it).   Can you afford to pay for it "up front" and NOT get reimbursed?

The estate would be liable for funeral costs*, and gets first dibs over any debt, BUT that would involve being able to find paperwork and at least make initial enquires as to the location of any cash in the estate.    If the only assets of the estate are the house, then unless "someone" deals with it, it could be a long long time, before this asset is dealt with.

* Whether you arrange and pay, and then look to recoup, or the Local Authority do, but they might not get involved if there are assets of the estate.  

Probably not applicable  in this case but secured debt does come ahead of funeral costs, and if someone dies owing money to a bank they also have savings with, the back can offset the debt against the savings.

No secured debts come second to the funeral debts.  Google as that wrong.  The insolvency act of 1986 sets this order and cannot be argued against. 

"(2) The reasonable funeral, testamentary and administration expenses have priority over the preferential debts listed in Schedule 6 to the Act."  Taken directly from the act

madbadrob

Ive read this with interest and my views differ to some who have replied and agree with a lot.  

Taking on the funeral in no way means you have meddled in the affairs of the deceased.

Who gave you the keys to the property?  

As you have been identified as a living heir to the estate means its not bona vacantia.  Thats my first difference of views.

My second is the fact that under intestacy rules you are now is heir and as such his property becomes yours.  To stop you becoming liable for any damages to others properties due to the condition of dads etc you have two choices.  Repair it and sell after obtaining letters of administration or disclaim your right to inherit.  This is fraught with legal implications so youd be well advised to seek legal advice.  

My question and another reason for speaking to a solicitor is this.  By entering the property and obtaining quotes for cleaning can this be considered as intermeddling?  Id like to think not however a court may see it differently.

Do not intermeddle

This means you shouldn't take any actions that suggest you are administering the estate before legally appointed. 

Could it be seen or suggest by having the keys obtaining quotes etc that you have started to administer the estate before administration as been granted?

So again another reason id be seeking legal advice.  Free of charge from citizens advice

Rob

doodling

Hi,

The property does not become the OP's unless the OP wants it to - it is not legally possible to force ownership of a property on someone, either by will or through intestacy.  The legal ownership of the property is unclear; I think it is the Crown but it could be the heirs under the intestacy act conditional on them taking up administration in the same way that an executor's ownership only legally manifests when they start executing the estate.  I can't find a definitive answer (it will be stated on Letters of Admistration as they authorise an Administrator to act on behalf of the legal owner).

It is definitely not owned by the OP at this stage and if they don't want to do anything then they don't have to (and will not incur any liability by doing nothing).  The only thing the OP should do is support someone else if they decide to take on the role of Administrator - usually this would be by signing a form saying that they have no interest in the role when asked to do so.

Appropriating cash or money from bank accounts to pay for a funeral is not intermeddling.  Appropriating other assets would be intermeddling - e.g. if you sell a wedding ring from the estate to get money to pay for a funeral then that would be intermeddling.

Entering the property is not intermeddling (assuming no damage caused) nor is getting quotes for something.  Actually clearing the property (in theory just emptying the kitchen bin for example) would be intermeddling.

Retaining possession of the keys could be seen as intermeddling (the keys themselves are an asset that belongs to the estate) so if the OP really isn't going to get involved then locking the house and posting the keys through the letterbox, ideally with a witness present, is probably the way to go.

The only point the OP should note is that if there is value in the estate and they reject the possibility of acquiring it then they may be deemed to have that value when being assessed for state benefits.  In this case the value sounds very low (or even negative) but it is worth being aware of.

Keep_pedalling

madbadrob said:

Keep_pedalling said:

Sea_Shell said:

FlorayG said:

I think you've already taken responsibility by starting to do things ( like contacting a cleaning company).
The good news is, you aren't responsible for his debts, so if the estate won't cover costs then you don't have to pay

I doubt that counts as intermeddling?

AIUI you don't HAVE to do anything.   

But, if you have arranged the funeral, you will be expected to pay for it, initially, unless you can present an invoice to his bank, (assuming any funds within it).   Can you afford to pay for it "up front" and NOT get reimbursed?

The estate would be liable for funeral costs*, and gets first dibs over any debt, BUT that would involve being able to find paperwork and at least make initial enquires as to the location of any cash in the estate.    If the only assets of the estate are the house, then unless "someone" deals with it, it could be a long long time, before this asset is dealt with.

* Whether you arrange and pay, and then look to recoup, or the Local Authority do, but they might not get involved if there are assets of the estate.  

Probably not applicable  in this case but secured debt does come ahead of funeral costs, and if someone dies owing money to a bank they also have savings with, the back can offset the debt against the savings.

No secured debts come second to the funeral debts.  Google as that wrong.  The insolvency act of 1986 sets this order and cannot be argued against. 

"(2) The reasonable funeral, testamentary and administration expenses have priority over the preferential debts listed in Schedule 6 to the Act."  Taken directly from the act

Secured debt is not the same as preferential debt. Secured debt will typically be a mortgage or PCP finance on a car. Preferential debts are unsecured debts that take priority over other unsecured debt. Prior to 2003  things like unpaid taxes used to be classed as preferential debt, but since then I don’t think any personal debts have that priority and the term now only applies to insolvencies of companies where things like unpaid wages has priority over suppliers debts.

It is actually impossible to prioritise funeral costs over secured debt because you can’t sell the asset without clearing the debt. In the case of a home once sold the the conveyance solicitor will bay off the debt before releasing any of the equity to the administration, and you can’t sell a car on PCP without clearing the finance.

NeverTooLate

madbadrob said:

So again another reason id be seeking legal advice.  Free of charge from citizens advice

Rob

Citizens Advice does not offer legal advice.

madbadrob

NeverTooLate said:

madbadrob said:

So again another reason id be seeking legal advice.  Free of charge from citizens advice

Rob

Citizens Advice does not offer legal advice.

As I have a friend who  is a qualified solicitor and he is a legal volunteer for CAB i can assure you do offer legal advice.  There advice is limited but where it is outside of their scope they will refer you to local solicitors that work in the scope of what you are looking for.  The law society on their pages actually suggest the CAB for advice so not sure where you have been told they dont offer legal advice. 

Rob