Franchise and unpaid work

DullGreyGuy

martyn0284 said:

pinkshoes said:

Isn't this something that needs to be factored into the price you get per parcel?

E.g. my neighbour runs a small business so charges £XX per item. The cost per item factors in material costs, their time to make it, plus admin costs (cost of running website each year, time uploading picture, time packaging items, time to post them out etc...). 

So she works out how many items she might sell per year, then works out all the above costs then adds on a profit margin. 

So you need to work out how many parcels you deliver per year, then how much time you actually spend doing ALL aspects of the job, then that will give you an hourly rate.

Some franchises are quite a rip off. A friend of mine looked at a sports club one. They weren't the brightest spark and were really excited about it. I point out that even if they filled each class to maximum capacity, if they add in travel time in rush hour, petrol costs, cost of hall rental, percentage of their income to the franchise etc... they'd actually earn less than the minimum wage. 

Many times - depending on work load, many of us work for less than minimum wage, if you factor the cost of rental, fuel and what ever other charges they add on, and the hours you do, it's a very real possibility you're doing a 10+ hour day for £100-£110 and at times, far less. Don't get me wrong, you can earn a good packet at times, but as with any other job, it's very up and down due to many factors.

'Isn't this something that needs to be factored into the price you get per parcel?' When you're getting on average around £1.90 per delivery, after you've taken the fuel and vehicle rental, insurance, excess mileage and other charges into account, that £1.90 suddenly ends up been a lot less (obviously)

Though many of those will be legitimate business expenses which will be taken off the revenue to calculate your profit on which you are then taxes. 

Undervalued

martyn0284 said:

Undervalued said:

martyn0284 said:

Hi all,

I work as a franchise for a very well known parcel delivery firm. We are paid per successful delivery, so if we don't deliver anything we don't get paid. However, I spend around 2 hours everyday (sometimes a lot more) scanning the parcels in the morning, looking for missing parcels and loading the van, and then emptying my van in the evening at the depot, all for free. Obviously the scanning/loading/unloading is a necessary part of the job. If we worked a full 20 day period, 13 times a year (it's paid every 4 weeks) it averages out that we're essentially working a week in every 4 weeks, or 3 months a year for free (based on a 40 hour working week).

I have looked through my contract and nowhere in there does it state that this is part of the job (scanning/loading etc), or that it is unpaid. Like mentioned earlier, it's obviously part of the job whether it states it or not in the contract, but it doesn't even gloss over it, let alone go into any detail about pay etc.

Even being franchise, surely it shouldn't be free labour? Or the fact that we are 'self employed' shouldn't make any difference?

The employed staff are paid from the moment they clock in, to the moment they clock out. We neither clock in or out. The only possibility of records for hours been traceable is when we login to our devices in the morning and download our route, then start scanning, sign out from the depot to start delivering and then sign out of the route at the end of the day, but that would be the same for the employed staff - only difference is they clock in and out.

I've been there 8 years this year and based on how many shifts I've worked at 2+ hours a day for free, taking NMW into account since 2017 at roughly £9 p/h (taking it as average from 2017 to 2025), they have had the best part of £25k work out of me for nothing, which as of right now works out as a years NMW salary (2025).

All figures quoted are based on 2 hours a day and an average of NMW since 2017 to 2025.

Is there anything I could do about this?

All help will be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Only if you can successfully argue that you should actually be an employee, in which cast the NMW and other rights such as paid holiday etc would apply.

However I expect your contract is written in such a way as to try an ensure that you are a self employed business providing services to the "well known firm".

You would need expert advice on the both the contract and the actually reality of what happens on a day to day basis. Expect an uphill and potentially expensive battle.

We basically are an employee at the mercy of them. We have to buy (ourselves) and wear their uniform, can't use the van that we pay an extortionate amount for every month for any other work elsewhere. They specify what days we work, how much work we do etc. We don't get a say in anything in the day to day running of 'our business'. It's all on their terms, not ours. I understand that some of that is probably statutory though.

Only if you can successfully argue that you should actually be an employee, in which cast the NMW and other rights such as paid holiday etc would apply. A few years ago they did introduce a couple of other options for what you are classed as, such as self employed, but get paid for holidays etc etc. The only thing we are 'self employed' in, is paying our own tax as far as I can see.

'However I expect your contract is written in such a way as to try an ensure that you are a self employed business providing services to the "well known firm"'. I think it is as they constantly refer to it as 'your business', but in reality as already mentioned, we have no say over anything at all.

Thing is, surely the fact that we are self employed or not, they can't expect free labour out of us (which is exactly what they do), as any other self employed business wouldn't do any work for nothing?

Nobody on here can give you a guaranteed answer. You make many valid points but we have not seen the contract which will no doubt have been written by specialist lawyers specifically to avoid, as far as possible, you being an employee by default.

There are a long list of factors beyond the points you mention, for example are you free to turn down work and if you mess up do you have to correct the problem in your time and at your expense or in the "employer's" time and at their cost? 

Are you claiming self employed type expenses against tax? etc etc.

martyn0284

DullGreyGuy said:

martyn0284 said:

pinkshoes said:

Isn't this something that needs to be factored into the price you get per parcel?

E.g. my neighbour runs a small business so charges £XX per item. The cost per item factors in material costs, their time to make it, plus admin costs (cost of running website each year, time uploading picture, time packaging items, time to post them out etc...). 

So she works out how many items she might sell per year, then works out all the above costs then adds on a profit margin. 

So you need to work out how many parcels you deliver per year, then how much time you actually spend doing ALL aspects of the job, then that will give you an hourly rate.

Some franchises are quite a rip off. A friend of mine looked at a sports club one. They weren't the brightest spark and were really excited about it. I point out that even if they filled each class to maximum capacity, if they add in travel time in rush hour, petrol costs, cost of hall rental, percentage of their income to the franchise etc... they'd actually earn less than the minimum wage. 

Many times - depending on work load, many of us work for less than minimum wage, if you factor the cost of rental, fuel and what ever other charges they add on, and the hours you do, it's a very real possibility you're doing a 10+ hour day for £100-£110 and at times, far less. Don't get me wrong, you can earn a good packet at times, but as with any other job, it's very up and down due to many factors.

'Isn't this something that needs to be factored into the price you get per parcel?' When you're getting on average around £1.90 per delivery, after you've taken the fuel and vehicle rental, insurance, excess mileage and other charges into account, that £1.90 suddenly ends up been a lot less (obviously)

Though many of those will be legitimate business expenses which will be taken off the revenue to calculate your profit on which you are then taxes. 

Of course, and I understand they are legitimate. When you do a 8, 9 or 10+ hour day (10 is pretty much a standard day) and you're walking away with say £90 before any tax etc - which can be realistic at times, you suddenly realise that the wage is shocking. It costs me on average £90 a day (vehicle rental, fuel and other costs associated), and I'm getting on average anywhere from £200 - £220 but at times far less - take one day earlier this month for example I was paid around £185, but my day was no shorter than any other normal day - that obviously works out at around £9 p/h if I'm lucky

Undervalued

martyn0284 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

martyn0284 said:

pinkshoes said:

Isn't this something that needs to be factored into the price you get per parcel?

E.g. my neighbour runs a small business so charges £XX per item. The cost per item factors in material costs, their time to make it, plus admin costs (cost of running website each year, time uploading picture, time packaging items, time to post them out etc...). 

So she works out how many items she might sell per year, then works out all the above costs then adds on a profit margin. 

So you need to work out how many parcels you deliver per year, then how much time you actually spend doing ALL aspects of the job, then that will give you an hourly rate.

Some franchises are quite a rip off. A friend of mine looked at a sports club one. They weren't the brightest spark and were really excited about it. I point out that even if they filled each class to maximum capacity, if they add in travel time in rush hour, petrol costs, cost of hall rental, percentage of their income to the franchise etc... they'd actually earn less than the minimum wage. 

Many times - depending on work load, many of us work for less than minimum wage, if you factor the cost of rental, fuel and what ever other charges they add on, and the hours you do, it's a very real possibility you're doing a 10+ hour day for £100-£110 and at times, far less. Don't get me wrong, you can earn a good packet at times, but as with any other job, it's very up and down due to many factors.

'Isn't this something that needs to be factored into the price you get per parcel?' When you're getting on average around £1.90 per delivery, after you've taken the fuel and vehicle rental, insurance, excess mileage and other charges into account, that £1.90 suddenly ends up been a lot less (obviously)

Though many of those will be legitimate business expenses which will be taken off the revenue to calculate your profit on which you are then taxes. 

Of course, and I understand they are legitimate. When you do a 8, 9 or 10+ hour day (10 is pretty much a standard day) and you're walking away with say £90 before any tax etc - which can be realistic at times, you suddenly realise that the wage is shocking. It costs me on average £90 a day (vehicle rental, fuel and other costs associated), and I'm getting on average anywhere from £200 - £220 but at times far less - take one day earlier this month for example I was paid around £185, but my day was no shorter than any other normal day - that obviously works out at around £9 p/h if I'm lucky

This was posted at the same time as mine (just above) which you may not have seen.

martyn0284

Undervalued said:

martyn0284 said:

Undervalued said:

martyn0284 said:

Hi all,

I work as a franchise for a very well known parcel delivery firm. We are paid per successful delivery, so if we don't deliver anything we don't get paid. However, I spend around 2 hours everyday (sometimes a lot more) scanning the parcels in the morning, looking for missing parcels and loading the van, and then emptying my van in the evening at the depot, all for free. Obviously the scanning/loading/unloading is a necessary part of the job. If we worked a full 20 day period, 13 times a year (it's paid every 4 weeks) it averages out that we're essentially working a week in every 4 weeks, or 3 months a year for free (based on a 40 hour working week).

I have looked through my contract and nowhere in there does it state that this is part of the job (scanning/loading etc), or that it is unpaid. Like mentioned earlier, it's obviously part of the job whether it states it or not in the contract, but it doesn't even gloss over it, let alone go into any detail about pay etc.

Even being franchise, surely it shouldn't be free labour? Or the fact that we are 'self employed' shouldn't make any difference?

The employed staff are paid from the moment they clock in, to the moment they clock out. We neither clock in or out. The only possibility of records for hours been traceable is when we login to our devices in the morning and download our route, then start scanning, sign out from the depot to start delivering and then sign out of the route at the end of the day, but that would be the same for the employed staff - only difference is they clock in and out.

I've been there 8 years this year and based on how many shifts I've worked at 2+ hours a day for free, taking NMW into account since 2017 at roughly £9 p/h (taking it as average from 2017 to 2025), they have had the best part of £25k work out of me for nothing, which as of right now works out as a years NMW salary (2025).

All figures quoted are based on 2 hours a day and an average of NMW since 2017 to 2025.

Is there anything I could do about this?

All help will be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Only if you can successfully argue that you should actually be an employee, in which cast the NMW and other rights such as paid holiday etc would apply.

However I expect your contract is written in such a way as to try an ensure that you are a self employed business providing services to the "well known firm".

You would need expert advice on the both the contract and the actually reality of what happens on a day to day basis. Expect an uphill and potentially expensive battle.

We basically are an employee at the mercy of them. We have to buy (ourselves) and wear their uniform, can't use the van that we pay an extortionate amount for every month for any other work elsewhere. They specify what days we work, how much work we do etc. We don't get a say in anything in the day to day running of 'our business'. It's all on their terms, not ours. I understand that some of that is probably statutory though.

Only if you can successfully argue that you should actually be an employee, in which cast the NMW and other rights such as paid holiday etc would apply. A few years ago they did introduce a couple of other options for what you are classed as, such as self employed, but get paid for holidays etc etc. The only thing we are 'self employed' in, is paying our own tax as far as I can see.

'However I expect your contract is written in such a way as to try an ensure that you are a self employed business providing services to the "well known firm"'. I think it is as they constantly refer to it as 'your business', but in reality as already mentioned, we have no say over anything at all.

Thing is, surely the fact that we are self employed or not, they can't expect free labour out of us (which is exactly what they do), as any other self employed business wouldn't do any work for nothing?

Nobody on here can give you a guaranteed answer. You make many valid points but we have not seen the contract which will no doubt have been written by specialist lawyers specifically to avoid, as far as possible, you being an employee by default.

There are a long list of factors beyond the points you mention, for example are you free to turn down work and if you mess up do you have to correct the problem in your time and at your expense or in the "employer's" time and at their cost? 

Are you claiming self employed type expenses against tax? etc etc.

We can turn work down yes, but as mentioned in a previous reply, we are then punished by them automatically standing us down on the next shift. Should we 'mess up', we are expected to do it during our working hours - or beyond our specified hours should we not have time during our working hours.

Yes, the self employed type expenses can be offset against tax

DullGreyGuy

martyn0284 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

martyn0284 said:

pinkshoes said:

Isn't this something that needs to be factored into the price you get per parcel?

E.g. my neighbour runs a small business so charges £XX per item. The cost per item factors in material costs, their time to make it, plus admin costs (cost of running website each year, time uploading picture, time packaging items, time to post them out etc...). 

So she works out how many items she might sell per year, then works out all the above costs then adds on a profit margin. 

So you need to work out how many parcels you deliver per year, then how much time you actually spend doing ALL aspects of the job, then that will give you an hourly rate.

Some franchises are quite a rip off. A friend of mine looked at a sports club one. They weren't the brightest spark and were really excited about it. I point out that even if they filled each class to maximum capacity, if they add in travel time in rush hour, petrol costs, cost of hall rental, percentage of their income to the franchise etc... they'd actually earn less than the minimum wage. 

Many times - depending on work load, many of us work for less than minimum wage, if you factor the cost of rental, fuel and what ever other charges they add on, and the hours you do, it's a very real possibility you're doing a 10+ hour day for £100-£110 and at times, far less. Don't get me wrong, you can earn a good packet at times, but as with any other job, it's very up and down due to many factors.

'Isn't this something that needs to be factored into the price you get per parcel?' When you're getting on average around £1.90 per delivery, after you've taken the fuel and vehicle rental, insurance, excess mileage and other charges into account, that £1.90 suddenly ends up been a lot less (obviously)

Though many of those will be legitimate business expenses which will be taken off the revenue to calculate your profit on which you are then taxes. 

Of course, and I understand they are legitimate. When you do a 8, 9 or 10+ hour day (10 is pretty much a standard day) and you're walking away with say £90 before any tax etc - which can be realistic at times, you suddenly realise that the wage is shocking. It costs me on average £90 a day (vehicle rental, fuel and other costs associated), and I'm getting on average anywhere from £200 - £220 but at times far less - take one day earlier this month for example I was paid around £185, but my day was no shorter than any other normal day - that obviously works out at around £9 p/h if I'm lucky

So make your decision on if that is sufficient for your needs and if it isnt then look for other work. 

Businesses frequently have to decide if a particular revenue stream is worth the effort and/or risk and pull out when they decide it isnt even if on paper it's technically making a modest profit. 

martyn0284

I've just ripped this straight from the Citizens advice website, and the 3 points mentioned are what we fall into

Check if you’re an employee

You’re an employee if:

• your employer is in charge of what work you do and how you should go about it on a day to day basis (even if you’re left alone to actually do the work) 

• under your contract you have to do the work yourself - you can’t pass it onto someone else

• your contract guarantees you at least a minimum number of hours of work each week or month - and you have to do it

DullGreyGuy

martyn0284 said:

I've just ripped this straight from the Citizens advice website, and the 3 points mentioned are what we fall into

Check if you’re an employee

You’re an employee if:

• your employer is in charge of what work you do and how you should go about it on a day to day basis (even if you’re left alone to actually do the work) 

• under your contract you have to do the work yourself - you can’t pass it onto someone else

• your contract guarantees you at least a minimum number of hours of work each week or month - and you have to do it

You can use HMRC's tool https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/guidance/check-employment-status-for-tax/start/disclaimer you want to choose the second option

https://www.menzieslaw.co.uk/case-update-1-employment-status-case1-gig-economy-cycle-courier/ some have won Worker status which gets them some protections but not as much as an employee

martyn0284

DullGreyGuy said:

martyn0284 said:

I've just ripped this straight from the Citizens advice website, and the 3 points mentioned are what we fall into

Check if you’re an employee

You’re an employee if:

• your employer is in charge of what work you do and how you should go about it on a day to day basis (even if you’re left alone to actually do the work) 

• under your contract you have to do the work yourself - you can’t pass it onto someone else

• your contract guarantees you at least a minimum number of hours of work each week or month - and you have to do it

You can use HMRC's tool https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/guidance/check-employment-status-for-tax/start/disclaimer you want to choose the second option

I'll check that out and come back to you

Undervalued

martyn0284 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

martyn0284 said:

I've just ripped this straight from the Citizens advice website, and the 3 points mentioned are what we fall into

Check if you’re an employee

You’re an employee if:

• your employer is in charge of what work you do and how you should go about it on a day to day basis (even if you’re left alone to actually do the work) 

• under your contract you have to do the work yourself - you can’t pass it onto someone else

• your contract guarantees you at least a minimum number of hours of work each week or month - and you have to do it

You can use HMRC's tool https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/guidance/check-employment-status-for-tax/start/disclaimer you want to choose the second option

I'll check that out and come back to you

It will be easy enough to find "official" guidance that says what your want to hear. It may well be that you do cross the line and "should" be an employee. How you progress that, cost effectively and to your overall advantage is quite another matter.