RTS Switch-off

Scot_39

Qyburn said:

HarryIb said:

... I can see in the future how time-of-day tariffs will be foisted upon us. ..

At which point anyone without a smart meter will be on the highest rate 24/7.

No they won't.

A terrible attempt at scaremongering.

Just like at the moment Agile 1/2 hrly is sometimes well below the cap and sometimes  well above.

Like when renewables failed to deliver yet again in Jan and Agile multiplier was hitting the Octopus self imposed cap of £1 for days in a row - forcing many to abandoned the tariff at least temporarily.  

And eventually a sane govt is going to have to sort out the nonsense of pricing renewables on the basis they are paid when not needed  - curtailment and grid thermal constraint.  Renewables made £1bn last year - nearly £30 per domestic / SME connection. The later alone forecast to hit £3bn pa by 2030 by ESO - near £100 per connection. Figures the green zealots don't like being published. And at that point agile cheap rates will soon start to disappear.

And as far as flexible time of use but "fixed" prices - take Octopus's own Cosy rates - whos fixed prices average out not too far from the cap.  If use power constantly. Just 10% below Octopus flex rate in my region at todays rates.

And those who don't delay their evening meal  or after work shower or kids game consoles use after school -  so using at peak - 50% above flex rates - could end up paying more.  Certainly in summer when no heating used.

Just like those who choose Tracker rather than agile as cheaper for them as cannot or simply don't want to avoid peak use.

QrizB

Scot_39 said:

Qyburn said:

HarryIb said:

... I can see in the future how time-of-day tariffs will be foisted upon us. ..

At which point anyone without a smart meter will be on the highest rate 24/7.

No they won't.
A terrible attempt at scaremongering.

None of you can offer any evidence for your positions.

The OP is claiming that "time-of-use tariffs will be foisted upon us", which some might read as saying they will become compulsory. There's no evidence for this.

Qyburn is saying that, if ToU tariffs are made compulsory, people without smart meters will be charged at the highest daily rate. There's no evidence for that.

And now you're saying that they won't be charged at the highest daily rate. There's no evidence for that either.

Scot_39 said:

Just like at the moment Agile 1/2 hrly is sometimes well below the cap and sometimes  well above.

You can't realistically compare any of the current elective ToU tariffs, and how they relate to their non-ToU contemporaries or the cap, with the OPs hypothetical mandatory ones.

They're hypothetical. No-one knows how they'll treat non-ToU customers because (i) they don't exist and (ii) there's been no meaningful discussion of how they'd be introduced if they were to exist.

It's a bit like trying to discuss the natural history of unicorns, or dragons, or trolls.

Scot_39 said:

Renewables made £1bn last year - nearly £30 per domestic / SME connection.

How much did gas plants make last year? Or do the "gas zealots" not like that figure being published either?

debitcardmayhem

HarryIb said:

Thanks everyone, for the comments and advice. I'm still not convinced by the supposed benefits of smart meters. In particular, I can see in the future how time-of-day tariffs will be foisted upon us. Also, I don't like the idea that the energy provider calls the shots with a smart meter. Sooner or later it's likely that it will be compulsory for hourly data to be transmitted. One reads of many problems with the devices, so that's another reason why I'm holding off at the moment. Anyway, given that it's not an RTS meter it seems like I can continue to ignore the EDF hectoring.

I inherited the Econ-7 meter. I don't have storage heaters, but use the night rate for the dish washer, immersion heater and the like. It might be more cost effective to have a single rate tariff - I'll be looking into it shortly.

Scot-39 - spot on! The meter was installed in November 2010. Thanks for letting me know that it's got another five years.

Perhaps you ignore the threads on this board which those with meters that are not smart who post my bill is too high…. but usually it’s because they don’t send readings, and their bill is based on estimates, or they don’t realise that their immersion is on all the time until they get a wake up call.

 TOU tariffs are not just for electricity either Octopus tracker for gas is currently saving me 10-20% over SVT and 5-15% vs the Dec24 fix.

Sadly the 90% of smart users don’t write to forums or the dead tree press saying “Hey my smart meters work brilliantly” so you never see that.

Newbie_John

As written above, 90% happy customers (or even more with the new version of smart meters) don't write anything.

Pick the retailer you trust the most - be it Sainsbury's, Booking.com whatever and check Trustpilot score - it will be low as you only get people who complain - same with smart meters.

If you don't want to use any of its fancy features - you don't have to, it will work the same way as your current one. You can still submit manual readings, you don't have to check in the app your actual half hourly usage and take daily readings..

Scot_39

How much did gas plants make last year? Or do the "gas zealots" not like that figure being published either?

If renewables didn't regularly fail to deliver - like this Jan lows of c3GW - 10% of theoretical installed  capacity - or last Jan's  even worse lows of 1.6GW one freezing cold winters afternoon -  we could shut the gas plants permanently.

As it we all too often regularly need them.

And Jan peak gas rates - to a couple of plants that made headlines - yet another failure of govt and Ofgem policy - on contracts - not just on renewables. Backing wind and solar without storage - cheap but ultimately Unreliable.  

That in reality provide UK with no real energy security.

We came close to regretting the last c2GW of coal we shutdown (Ratcliffe) late last year (after at least one extension) this Jan - capacity we used the previous Jan (2024) to help cover winds low output.  Hence the notice and the spin up at short notice expensive rates when scheduled for standby.

Scot_39

Newbie_John said:

As written above, 90% happy customers (or even more with the new version of smart meters) don't write anything.

Pick the retailer you trust the most - be it Sainsbury's, Booking.com whatever and check Trustpilot score - it will be low as you only get people who complain - same with smart meters.

If you don't want to use any of its fancy features - you don't have to, it will work the same way as your current one. You can still submit manual readings, you don't have to check in the app your actual half hourly usage and take daily readings..

My smart meter works - its even working via DCC - but worked with several big and small before -  doesn't mean I am happy with the cost of the whole exercise.

And meters that already fitted will need new comms hubs to go 4G - rollout now in testing.  Other early fittings - those that have 10 year life spans - smart electric cf old meters with digital upto 20 and old analogue upto 40 years - gas batteries maybe 10 years if lucky (others have failed much earlier).  So a continual replacement / servicing / obsolescence cost going forward.

Nor am I so happy that I have lost sympathy for the millions - facing the at times real stress and frustration the roll out causes to many of the 10%.

And although smets2 and DB HAN / even althan solves some of the issues - it is far from solving the major one - regarding network coverage. 

Read some of the painful journeys to smart meter - it should make Ofgem and suppliers alike ashamed.

And you no longer have a default choice about use of some of the fancy features by others.  

Ofgem have scrapped DAPF default opt in for 1/2 hourly data - on new meter upgrades or supplier switch - on the march to half hourly settlement.

DAPF existed for a reason - even if you didn't agree with it - others did - and weakening it - another gift to those in the anti smart camp.

Ildhund

Scot_39 said:

DAPF existed for a reason ...

For those of us who didn't quite get the reason, could you explain it so even an octogenarian could understand? 

Newbie_John

@Scot_39, sure but you're just talking about feelings and worries, skipping the most obvious - the potential of smart meters.

My story starts similarly to OPs, we've been living in a electric only house with E7 meter and I had no idea how anything worked in my house - comparing to like for like kWh rates we were paying about £2500 a year - and I had no idea what E7 is and how it works (what time as it could be anything between 23:30-0:30 to start), how my immersion heater worked.. literally nothing. Switched to SMET2 just to understand.

Then I figured out seeing usage patterns it'd be 10% cheaper if I move away from E7 to normal tariff saving £250. Year later I gave a go Agile and that trimmed my bill to about £1500, in October 2024 I switched to Tomato Lifestyle TOU and it was my cheapest winter ever - I estimate to close the year below £1000.

Now averaging to 10p/kWh without any need to invest in expensive solar/battery set ups that cost £8k+ in most cases.

And this opportunity never gets any coverage, just the worries that "we'll be made to cook dinner at 11am", that our electricity access gets cut off, that it won't work and we'll get incorrect bills.. to the point that people are happy to spend £10k on solar stuff to save on bills 😅

Scot_39

Ildhund said:

Scot_39 said:

DAPF existed for a reason ...

For those of us who didn't quite get the reason, could you explain it so even an octogenarian could understand? 

The DAPF restricted suppliers access to the three different frequencies of meter consumption data based on domestic consumers individual choice.  And it's specifically references for billing purposes - but allows access for other purposes - like fraud detection / meter tampering etc without permission.

monthly - you can opt out of default daily so they can only see monthly

daily - the default - but with a mandatory option to opt out

1/2 hourly - opt in only - no default access for billing.

If a supplier doesnt have access to your data for billing purposes - it does mean of course they cannot bill you off of it. And if there was no risk of use for future billing - some might argue why explicitly link the frequency of access control to use specifically for billing.

No 1/2 hourly - no tariffs like Agile or Cosy - can be applied to your account

For good or bad

No daily - no tariffs like tracker can be applied to your account

For good or bad

So for those worried about having such tariffs imposed - however unlikely you or I might currently think that is - the simply solution was to opt out of giving suppliers that data for billing.

And coming forward to Ofgems Privacy Impact Assessment for half hourly settllement - note settlement in the exercise below - not billing - considerations included how individual users data rights should or could be maintained.  The potential could covering who would be collecting the data - and when depersonalised - one suggesting being that suppliers should only be given data once aggregated by a third party - or only allowed to record it on an anonomysed - hidden user basis - as soon as possible in the data chain.

That discussion took several pages for instance of

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2018/07/access_to_data_for_settlement_consultation_5.pdf

So it is clear Ofgem were very much still aware of users data privacy implications - and GDPR (DAPF proceeded it and again had to be reviewed it complied when EU introduced GDPR).

Scot_39

Newbie_John said:

@Scot_39, sure but you're just talking about feelings and worries, skipping the most obvious - the potential of smart meters.

My story starts similarly to OPs, we've been living in a electric only house with E7 meter and I had no idea how anything worked in my house - comparing to like for like kWh rates we were paying about £2500 a year - and I had no idea what E7 is and how it works (what time as it could be anything between 23:30-0:30 to start), how my immersion heater worked.. literally nothing. Switched to SMET2 just to understand.

Then I figured out seeing usage patterns it'd be 10% cheaper if I move away from E7 to normal tariff saving £250. Year later I gave a go Agile and that trimmed my bill to about £1500, in October 2024 I switched to Tomato Lifestyle TOU and it was my cheapest winter ever - I estimate to close the year below £1000.

Now averaging to 10p/kWh without any need to invest in expensive solar/battery set ups that cost £8k+ in most cases.

And this opportunity never gets any coverage, just the worries that "we'll be made to cook dinner at 11am", that our electricity access gets cut off, that it won't work and we'll get incorrect bills.. to the point that people are happy to spend £10k on solar stuff to save on bills 😅

I am not ignoring anything - having been a reader here for 8 years - I am well aware of the potential savings.

I am not anti smart meters.

Agile and Tracker for instance have had repeated media coverage - but you have to be interested to read the news.

But on flip side - why dont the suppliers advertise their own deals.

Perhaps becuase doing so is expensive and would then increase costs. 

Likes of Nike probably spend £bns on marketing globally in a good year - but given they have double or triple digit margins (or they and their retailers combined do) - they can afford it.  

Energy - especially sub cap deals - are likely very tight margin operations.

Enforced TOU tariffs - the potential for surge pricing - has appeared as a real concern in more than one anti-smart meter users postings here.

Just like 50% never swap supplier or deal - millions of the 90% probably gain no advantage from smart meters. Some losing good RTS tariffs may even suffer like I did - my E10 was a lot more expensive - 27% iirc more than my old RTS tariff.

So arguably the better comparison is the % who do save after switching - vs the % of those who suffer as a result of switching.

And it would help if the 10% was broken down - a govt published figure - say into minor / annoying / serious issues - then that might reassure many.