Two sticking points with house purchase - damp and FENSA

sJanes

Damp - L3 survey has identified
* readings of up to 30% damp in walls above skirting boards, but no visual evidence.
* cellar has evidence of visual rising damp

Damp is quite common in old properties like this. I've viewed some which were obviously damp but this one didn't have any smell or other indication of damp that I could detect. 30% damp seems pretty high though. Survey doesn't say which walls. Cellar is only underneath one fairly small room at the front - it does have a window (open during viewing) but this was shut and there was stuff stored in front of it at the time of the survey. 
Is it worth asking the surveyor how widespread the damp in the walls is throughout the house? Might this be an expensive problem worth further investigation?

FENSA - seller has just replaced a fairly small window at the back of the house as part of general renovations, after offer. I'd rather have had a small discount and done it myself but the work was already underway. They didn't get any certification for this. Solicitor has asked why. I'm confused why you wouldn't have it done by someone FENSA/Certass registered, especially during a sale. It looks OK, but it would have to be a real bodge job for me to spot anything wrong. 
Does this matter? My previous houses didn't have any FENSA certs but that was years ago. I doubt the council will be bothered about one back window, but what about the actual workmanship, and selling on?

Thanks!

silvercar

For FENSA I'd want to know why they didn't get it certified, after all they were selling and must know the rules. the risk is that it needed an RSJ above it and they cut corners by not bothering. Normally, I'd say that a survey will show up issues, but it is too new to detect any issues that may come to light.

theartfullodger

Fensa is basically a money-raising scheme/s.... for Fensa.  I've sold 3.5 houses in past few years, no Fensa for any of them , not an issue .  (0.5 house as sold late brother's house with sister, joint beneficiaries... )

Bigphil1474

Our old house had damp in the cellar - we had some work done after the first buyer pulled out due to the damp issues in their survey,  it really just needed improving ventilation and a bit of drain work at the back. Cost about £2k but easy sorted. The second surveyor reckoned we had damp in the walls upstairs to the front bedroom around the chimney breast even though the first surveyor didn't find anything. He even commented that he had used the same pinholes made by the first surveyor's damp meter. Trouble is the damp meters they use aren't really designed for measuring damp in a plastered wall. Our buyers weren't concerned and like yours, there was no evidence of any damp issues at all. I suspect it was a bit of condensation.

We had a mixture of windows - our bay window had Fensa certification from 12 years previous, but the other 6/7 windows didn't. Some were over 40 years old. Might be worth checking on the Fensa website in case it's just been overlooked.

sJanes

Thanks, I did check the FENSA site in case (not there).

doodling

Hi,

With respect to the damp then, unless cellars are advertised otherwise, they are expected to be damp.  For the damp readings on the walls I would be questioning how they were obtained as to get valid readings would require removal of some of the plaster for testing - those two prong things are inaccurate to the point of pointlessness.  If there is no evidence of damp and no evidence that it has been covered up then I wouldn't be too concerned.  For example, if the property still has the original skirting boards on those walls in good condition, the plaster isn't blown and appears original and there is no evidence of recent redecoration then I'd be relatively relaxed.

With respect to FENSA, if you don't have it then there are four risks:

1. That the council takes action against you for failing to get building regulations sign off.  Unless this is brought to their attention (or you're in a conservation area or the building is listed) then the chances of this are negligible.  You may be able to get an indemnity policy to cover this risk.
2. That the window replacement has reduced the structural integrity of the wall.  This can happen where walls were built without lintels above the windows, relying on the strength of the wooden frames to support the brickwork above; unfortunately UPVC is not as strong as wood.  If you are lucky, you may be able to tell whether there is a lintel in place by visual inspection.  You won't get any kind of insurance to cover this risk.
3. That the window fails to meet the building requirements with respect to safety and energy conservation.  These might cover emergency escape, the use of toughened glass if the window is located in a location or at a height where there is greater risk of people colliding with it and installation to avoid drafts and achieve an adequate thermal performance.  Those risks are all yours.
4. If you sell in the future your buyers will ask the same questions that you're asking now.

Some window installations I would be relaxed about ignoring FENSA and some I wouldn't depending on where it was, what it replaced and my perception of the likelihood of the council taking an interest.

sJanes

Thanks for the details. I'm leaning towards taking the damp as just something to deal with in this sort of house.

FENSA - the only thing that bothers me about it is that they surely would have known the question would be asked about something done during a sale, so why didn't they just do it properly in the first place? There are several other windows which have obviously been replaced at some time and equally don't have a certificate of any kind, but they haven't just been done. It is in a conservation area, but I doubt the council would even get wind of one fairly small back window. It appears to be a pretty much direct replacement for an older (but not wooden) frame but with more openable area, no change to the aperture. I don't think any neighbours would notice the difference.

Flo87

doodling said:

1. That the window replacement has reduced the structural integrity of the wall.  This can happen where walls were built without lintels above the windows, relying on the strength of the wooden frames to support the brickwork above; unfortunately UPVC is not as strong as wood.  If you are lucky, you may be able to tell whether there is a lintel in place by visual inspection.  You won't get any kind of insurance to cover this risk.

uPVC profiles have a metal reinforcement bar in the middle of them, so they are the same or even more stronger compared with wooden ones 

FreeBear

Flo87 said:

doodling said:

1. That the window replacement has reduced the structural integrity of the wall.  This can happen where walls were built without lintels above the windows, relying on the strength of the wooden frames to support the brickwork above; unfortunately UPVC is not as strong as wood.  If you are lucky, you may be able to tell whether there is a lintel in place by visual inspection.  You won't get any kind of insurance to cover this risk.

uPVC profiles have a metal reinforcement bar in the middle of them, so they are the same or even more stronger compared with wooden ones 

Nope. Wrong.

Steel reinforcement is sometimes used with larger window frames to counter thermal expansion and to give them greater rigidity. Bay windows will normally have steel or aluminium corner posts, but these are an exception. You may also find steel reinforcements in conservatory frames depending on the manufacturer and the design.

Flo87

FreeBear said:

Nope. Wrong.

Steel reinforcement is sometimes used with larger window frames to counter thermal expansion and to give them greater rigidity. Bay windows will normally have steel or aluminium corner posts, but these are an exception. You may also find steel reinforcements in conservatory frames depending on the manufacturer and the design.

 Like 20 years ago I worked for a company(on continent) that was selling uPVC and Aluminium windows, all the uPVC profiles was with metal reinforcement, and I`m talking even for windows that are 50x50cm.
I`ve changed all the windows in the current house and they all have metal in the frame( Aluplast Ideal 4000), I`m really surprise when you are telling that only sometimes it`s used the steel reinforcement.

FreeBear

Flo87 said:

FreeBear said:

Nope. Wrong.

Steel reinforcement is sometimes used with larger window frames to counter thermal expansion and to give them greater rigidity. Bay windows will normally have steel or aluminium corner posts, but these are an exception. You may also find steel reinforcements in conservatory frames depending on the manufacturer and the design.

 Like 20 years ago I worked for a company(on continent) that was selling uPVC and Aluminium windows, all the uPVC profiles was with metal reinforcement, and I`m talking even for windows that are 50x50cm.
I`ve changed all the windows in the current house and they all have metal in the frame( Aluplast Ideal 4000), I`m really surprise when you are telling that only sometimes it`s used the steel reinforcement.

Cross section drawing of the Ideal 4000 profile.

Notice the voids & chambers surrounding the steel reinforcement - These will get crushed as soon as you put any real load on top.