New door with nightlatch, can the rim lock be replaced with one that will turn twice?

Emmia

Hi All, I feel this might be in the category of stupid questions, but thought I'd ask. 

We've recently had a new front door fitted which has a Yale nightlatch. Unlike our previous door, this new lock doesn't seem to allow for "double locking" of the top lock (i.e. turning the key twice) whereas the lock we had previously did. Is it possible to just replace the rim lock with one that will allow this?  

Looking at the lock it doesn't seem like it's a super good one i.e. anti bump etc., so I am considering changing it anyway. Is it best to stick with Yale or would another brand be better?

*The previous door had a dead latch, although we didn't have the key to allow it to be locked from the inside.

The door also has a lock with an internal thumb turn at the bottom of the door, and they're not keyed alike.

TheGreenFrog

You may have an auto deadlocking latch.  What is the BS standard of the lock (should be found on lock plate) - and does the lock have a small snib below the main latch bolt? 

You can maybe buy keyed alike rim cylinder (for your Yale, although will depend on the lock type) and thumb cylinder (for your other lock) and fit them yourselves (but make sure your get the correct cylinder size for the thumb turn).  I have done this with my rim lock and lower deadbolt and I used Cisa but there are other brands.  Have a look at https://www.barnsleylock.co.uk/index.asp

Emmia

TheGreenFrog said:

You may have an auto deadlocking latch.  What is the BS standard of the lock (should be found on lock plate) - and does the lock have a small snib below the main latch bolt? 

You can maybe buy keyed alike rim cylinder (for your Yale, although will depend on the lock type) and thumb cylinder (for your other lock) and fit them yourselves (but make sure your get the correct cylinder size for the thumb turn).  I have done this with my rim lock and lower deadbolt and I used Cisa but there are other brands.  Have a look at https://www.barnsleylock.co.uk/index.asp

I've taken internal box off the lock, and had a good look, but I can't find a BS number anywhere obvious. 

Having had a look at the Yale website, I think we've had a non-deadlocking night latch installed - this one 
https://yalehome.co.uk/p88-nightlatch-60mm/. 

Can the lock itself be upgraded to allow for double locking, or do I need a whole new nightlatch that has the functionality? 

would this be a better lock than the one we have? 

https://yalehome.co.uk/x5-kitemarked-replacement-cylinder/ 

thanks for the assistance

TheGreenFrog

Emmia said:

TheGreenFrog said:

You may have an auto deadlocking latch.  What is the BS standard of the lock (should be found on lock plate) - and does the lock have a small snib below the main latch bolt? 

You can maybe buy keyed alike rim cylinder (for your Yale, although will depend on the lock type) and thumb cylinder (for your other lock) and fit them yourselves (but make sure your get the correct cylinder size for the thumb turn).  I have done this with my rim lock and lower deadbolt and I used Cisa but there are other brands.  Have a look at https://www.barnsleylock.co.uk/index.asp

I've taken internal box off the lock, and had a good look, but I can't find a BS number anywhere obvious. 

Having had a look at the Yale website, I think we've had a non-deadlocking night latch installed - this one 
https://yalehome.co.uk/p88-nightlatch-60mm/. 

Can the lock itself be upgraded to allow for double locking, or do I need a whole new nightlatch that has the functionality? 

would this be a better lock than the one we have? 

https://yalehome.co.uk/x5-kitemarked-replacement-cylinder/ 

thanks for the assistance

If you have the P88 then that is indeed non-deadlocking. The P89 appears to be the deadlocking version of the same lock (not an auto deadlocking - you have to manually deadlock either from inside or by reverse turn of key from the outside).  Check measurements before you buy to make sure it is an easy swap.

https://yalehome.co.uk/p89-deadlocking-nightlatch-60mm/ 

The second link you posted is just for the cylinder - changing that just changes the key.  As per my earlier post you can buy keyed alike replacement cylinder for the Yale (either your current lock or the P89 if you swap for that - cylinders are the same) and for your thumb turn (eg Cisa - see previous link to locksmith).

Emmia

TheGreenFrog said:

Emmia said:

TheGreenFrog said:

You may have an auto deadlocking latch.  What is the BS standard of the lock (should be found on lock plate) - and does the lock have a small snib below the main latch bolt? 

You can maybe buy keyed alike rim cylinder (for your Yale, although will depend on the lock type) and thumb cylinder (for your other lock) and fit them yourselves (but make sure your get the correct cylinder size for the thumb turn).  I have done this with my rim lock and lower deadbolt and I used Cisa but there are other brands.  Have a look at https://www.barnsleylock.co.uk/index.asp

I've taken internal box off the lock, and had a good look, but I can't find a BS number anywhere obvious. 

Having had a look at the Yale website, I think we've had a non-deadlocking night latch installed - this one 
https://yalehome.co.uk/p88-nightlatch-60mm/. 

Can the lock itself be upgraded to allow for double locking, or do I need a whole new nightlatch that has the functionality? 

would this be a better lock than the one we have? 

https://yalehome.co.uk/x5-kitemarked-replacement-cylinder/ 

thanks for the assistance

If you have the P88 then that is indeed non-deadlocking. The P89 appears to be the deadlocking version of the same lock (not an auto deadlocking - you have to manually deadlock either from inside or by reverse turn of key from the outside).  Check measurements before you buy to make sure it is an easy swap.

https://yalehome.co.uk/p89-deadlocking-nightlatch-60mm/ 

The second link you posted is just for the cylinder - changing that just changes the key.  As per my earlier post you can buy keyed alike replacement cylinder for the Yale (either your current lock or the P89 if you swap for that - cylinders are the same) and for your thumb turn (eg Cisa - see previous link to locksmith).

Thank you, that has been really helpful.

We're looking for an option that allows deadlocking when we're both out. I'm going to check the measurements of the Yale linked to, to see if a swap can be made easily. 

TheGreenFrog

For keying alike, the cylinder for the Yale (either P88 or, if you choose to swapo out for a deadlocking version, P89) is straightforward as it is a standard type.  See for example:

https://www.barnsleylock.co.uk/cisa-astral-rim-cylinder---individual-locks-5931-p.asp

For your thumb turn, I am assuming it is a standard eurocylinder.  But you need to get the correct size - easiest is to take out your current cylinder and then measure it and refit.  Then order appropriate cylinder, keyed alike to the rimlock cylinder (so from same manufacturer).  For example:

https://www.barnsleylock.co.uk/cisa-astral-s-thumbturn-anti-snap-cylinders---keyed-alike-to--key-code-5942-p.asp

Probably easiest to just call the locksmith and order, once you have the measurements.  Also, Cisa keys (if that is what you go for) can have the code marked on them - ask for keys without the code (so more difficult to copy).

Emmia

I'm not sure if the husband will want both brand new locks changed tbh and there is the small matter of the fact that this is an FD30 front door to a flat (which is substantially more solid than it's predecessor!). I can see that keyed alike has advantages though - we have that on the main door to the building. 

I have a suspicion that we're not supposed to have a locking deadlock for fire safety reasons (although this is exactly what we had on our previous door), but we also don't like being unable to activate the deadlock when we're both out.

The bottom lock is an ERA. Is CISA better than Yale? How does ERA compare?

TheGreenFrog

Emmia said:

I'm not sure if the husband will want both brand new locks changed tbh and there is the small matter of the fact that this is a front door to a flat. I can see that keyed alike has advantages though - we have that on the main door to the building. 

I have a suspicion that we're not supposed to have a locking deadlock for fire safety reasons (although this is exactly what we had on our previous door), but we also don't like being unable to activate the deadlock when we're both out.

The bottom lock is an ERA. Is CISA better than Yale? How does ERA compare?

ERA perfectly good locks. 

Cisa makes cylinders and the keys for those cylinders are a bit trickier to get copied than "normal" keys/cylinders.  Avocet ABS and other brands are the same.  You can use their cylinders in any ERA thumbturn lock (assuming it uses a eurocylinder), and in Yale rimlocks of the type you have.  Keyed alike is just a question of changing the cylinders, not the locks.

Locking deadlock should not be a problem from fire safety if operated properly, but some locks can be operated incorrectly and you can lock yourself in, which is why auto deadlock best.  You can just stick with the non-deadlocking nightlatch - just remember to use your thumbturn deadlock for security. 

Emmia

@TheGreenFrog

I just wanted to thank you for the advice.

I ended up buying a Yale P89 nightlatch (which was an easy swap from the provided Yale nightlatch) and a CISA rim lock, both from Barnsley Locks. We installed them ourselves last weekend.