S172(2) alledged offence of using an electronic device whilst driving

Herzlos

paul_c123 said:

Gerrard00004 said:

Why take a month to make a statement, ironically a day after I emailed the Passenger driver? why not stop me, or put put the blues on to warn me? I am being to accept that it is going to be hard to defend this but don't call me a liar.

I believe they make notes in a notebook, which are kept and sometimes referred to in court if they are cross-examined as a witness. The statement in your evidence pack, a month later, will have been made referring back to the notebook.

Exactly this. They'll have noted the incident at the first safe opportunity i.e. after they'd left the motorway and found somewhere safe to stop.

The official statement will have been constructed from the notebook when and if required later. There's no point doing admin work if the driver was going to just accept the fixed penalty.

Okell

Gerrard00004 said:

Morning all,

Just after a bit of advice. I haven't attached any documentation as of yet but I am happy to do so if need be.

So the incident; (I have tried to keep it as brief as possible)

• I was driving a relatives van (fully insured) on the motorway - on my way back from work. My phone fell from its cradle onto the .... so I picked it up and tossed it onto the passenger seat...

Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but why in your first post did you type "My phone fell from its cradle onto the .... so I picked it up etc"

Why didn't you just say that it fell onto the dash rather than onto the .... ?

I think this may have contributed to the view that you've changed your story

Gerrard00004

Okell said:

Gerrard00004 said:

Morning all,

Just after a bit of advice. I haven't attached any documentation as of yet but I am happy to do so if need be.

So the incident; (I have tried to keep it as brief as possible)

• I was driving a relatives van (fully insured) on the motorway - on my way back from work. My phone fell from its cradle onto the .... so I picked it up and tossed it onto the passenger seat...

Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but why in your first post did you type "My phone fell from its cradle onto the .... so I picked it up etc"

Why didn't you just say that it fell onto the dash rather than onto the .... ?

I think this may have contributed to the view that you've changed your story

This is an admin error on my behalf. I typed out my post but wasn't sure on the correct terminology, so I put ..... as a temporary pause to come back to, which I over looked and didn't do so.

Car_54

Gerrard00004 said:

Okell said:

Gerrard00004 said:

Morning all,

Just after a bit of advice. I haven't attached any documentation as of yet but I am happy to do so if need be.

So the incident; (I have tried to keep it as brief as possible)

• I was driving a relatives van (fully insured) on the motorway - on my way back from work. My phone fell from its cradle onto the .... so I picked it up and tossed it onto the passenger seat...

Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but why in your first post did you type "My phone fell from its cradle onto the .... so I picked it up etc"

Why didn't you just say that it fell onto the dash rather than onto the .... ?

I think this may have contributed to the view that you've changed your story

This is an admin error on my behalf. I typed out my post but wasn't sure on the correct terminology, so I put ..... as a temporary pause to come back to, which I over looked and didn't do so.

I regret to say that I find that somewhat less than convincing.

Gerrard00004

Herzlos said:

Gerrard00004 said:
So how does the driver see I am looking forward and not on my phone if the passenger driver has turned his head to witness me slowing down and indicating into the slow lane?

According to their statement, you slowed down moments later and moved over. So I don't see any contradiction here.

The moving over part makes me assume the lane to your left was clear so they were potentially already aware that you may not have been paying attention. I don't think they'll be traffic police in a van, but they'll be used to seeing inattentive drivers all the time. I see a huge amount of drivers looking at their lap whilst driving.

Their assertion is that they observed you on a phone, confirmed it with each other and then when trying to get your registration details you'd discarded the phone, were slowing down and moving over.

I don't see how that fits with your story; where they happened to pass at the exact moment you were transferring the phone from dash to seat.

Given you claim you didn't even see them implies you weren't paynig enough attention which is probably what alerted them in the first place.

What would be interesting, but likely not relevant, is if they saw the phone itself or just the light from the phone and your innatentiveness.

Frankly, it sounds like you've been caught red handed, so I'd be inclined to just take the hit on it instead of wasting time and money trying to defend it, and pay more attention in future.

Yeah you are right, a lot of coincidences. So a Police Vehicle, with Police officers not trained to stop drivers on a motorway, are both looking at me whilst overtaking in the fast lane, in conditions described by both as not being the best. No mention in either statements of concerns raised due to my driving style which may have given them reason to both be looking into my cab? So a Police driver overtaking someone, in the fast lane, looking past a uniformed passenger, took his eyes off the road long enough to observe me looking at my lap, process it and then observe me using the mobile phone in my right hand, at lap height. 
Answer me this, if you are driving and overtaking a vehicle at speed on the motorway, how often do you look left at the driver of the vehicle you are over taking? You state that you have seen many drivers looking at their lap, did you see them using a phone? or did you assume?

Drivers statement - As I was over taking him - so he hasn't over taken me, I have slowed down to let the vehicle go past.....as we have gone parallel the male driver was looking forwards and no longer on his phone.
Passengers statement - As I turned my head back the driver has seen me and started to slow and move over into the left lane.

So the passenger states he looked back to take my registration, he can not do that if he is only a short distance ahead and by his own words I am also slowing and moving left. However, the driver claims to have slowed enough to become parallel with my vehicle and observed that I was no longer on my phone. This had already been observed by the Passenger when looking back, at the point of being parallel I would have been two lanes over, both vehicles would be travelling at speed and yet the driver can categorically state I was looking forward and not on my phone??? 

Additionally, I haven't claimed I didn't see them. I became aware of them as they were over taking me, by peripheral vision. Yes, I didn't see them in my Offside mirror, for whatever reason....not checking my mirrors often enough, them being behind me and in my blindspot until they pulled out and over took me, who knows. 
I don't understand the point you are raising regarding me indicating into the left lane, I assume you are suggesting I was just idolly hogging the middle lane. Was this referred to in their statements.... surely one of them would state 'we observed a vehicle driving in the middle lane and not driving to the left, and so, as we over took the vehicle I made an issue of observing the driver... oh and because of my suspicions I decided to film it for evidence.

You can all think what you want, you are entitled to have suspicions, that is only natural and fair. But if you are going to have your suspicions please take into consideration both sides of the story.
I know that whether you think I have been caught redhand or not doesn't help my defence in any way, because as you suggest, they are Police officers and why would they lie. So yes, I am probably going to have to take the hit - like it and lump it, just accept something because the penalties to challenge it are more serious than to just accept it. Is that fair?

paul_c123

Gerrard00004 said:

Herzlos said:

Gerrard00004 said:
So how does the driver see I am looking forward and not on my phone if the passenger driver has turned his head to witness me slowing down and indicating into the slow lane?

According to their statement, you slowed down moments later and moved over. So I don't see any contradiction here.

The moving over part makes me assume the lane to your left was clear so they were potentially already aware that you may not have been paying attention. I don't think they'll be traffic police in a van, but they'll be used to seeing inattentive drivers all the time. I see a huge amount of drivers looking at their lap whilst driving.

Their assertion is that they observed you on a phone, confirmed it with each other and then when trying to get your registration details you'd discarded the phone, were slowing down and moving over.

I don't see how that fits with your story; where they happened to pass at the exact moment you were transferring the phone from dash to seat.

Given you claim you didn't even see them implies you weren't paynig enough attention which is probably what alerted them in the first place.

What would be interesting, but likely not relevant, is if they saw the phone itself or just the light from the phone and your innatentiveness.

Frankly, it sounds like you've been caught red handed, so I'd be inclined to just take the hit on it instead of wasting time and money trying to defend it, and pay more attention in future.

Yeah you are right, a lot of coincidences. So a Police Vehicle, with Police officers not trained to stop drivers on a motorway, are both looking at me whilst overtaking in the fast lane, in conditions described by both as not being the best. No mention in either statements of concerns raised due to my driving style which may have given them reason to both be looking into my cab? So a Police driver overtaking someone, in the fast lane, looking past a uniformed passenger, took his eyes off the road long enough to observe me looking at my lap, process it and then observe me using the mobile phone in my right hand, at lap height. 
Answer me this, if you are driving and overtaking a vehicle at speed on the motorway, how often do you look left at the driver of the vehicle you are over taking? You state that you have seen many drivers looking at their lap, did you see them using a phone? or did you assume?

Drivers statement - As I was over taking him - so he hasn't over taken me, I have slowed down to let the vehicle go past.....as we have gone parallel the male driver was looking forwards and no longer on his phone.
Passengers statement - As I turned my head back the driver has seen me and started to slow and move over into the left lane.

So the passenger states he looked back to take my registration, he can not do that if he is only a short distance ahead and by his own words I am also slowing and moving left. However, the driver claims to have slowed enough to become parallel with my vehicle and observed that I was no longer on my phone. This had already been observed by the Passenger when looking back, at the point of being parallel I would have been two lanes over, both vehicles would be travelling at speed and yet the driver can categorically state I was looking forward and not on my phone??? 

Additionally, I haven't claimed I didn't see them. I became aware of them as they were over taking me, by peripheral vision. Yes, I didn't see them in my Offside mirror, for whatever reason....not checking my mirrors often enough, them being behind me and in my blindspot until they pulled out and over took me, who knows. 
I don't understand the point you are raising regarding me indicating into the left lane, I assume you are suggesting I was just idolly hogging the middle lane. Was this referred to in their statements.... surely one of them would state 'we observed a vehicle driving in the middle lane and not driving to the left, and so, as we over took the vehicle I made an issue of observing the driver... oh and because of my suspicions I decided to film it for evidence.

You can all think what you want, you are entitled to have suspicions, that is only natural and fair. But if you are going to have your suspicions please take into consideration both sides of the story.
I know that whether you think I have been caught redhand or not doesn't help my defence in any way, because as you suggest, they are Police officers and why would they lie. So yes, I am probably going to have to take the hit - like it and lump it, just accept something because the penalties to challenge it are more serious than to just accept it. Is that fair?

If you go to court, you'll need to make those same arguments, in a much more formal setting, with a much greater consequence if they are not successful. I'd use it as good practice.

It may well be that just before court, the prosecution withdraw the policeman driver's testimony and decide to rely on the policeman passenger alone. Do you have a robust defence against him accurately observing your mobile phone use?

Gerrard00004

Car_54 said:

Gerrard00004 said:

Okell said:

Gerrard00004 said:

Morning all,

Just after a bit of advice. I haven't attached any documentation as of yet but I am happy to do so if need be.

So the incident; (I have tried to keep it as brief as possible)

• I was driving a relatives van (fully insured) on the motorway - on my way back from work. My phone fell from its cradle onto the .... so I picked it up and tossed it onto the passenger seat...

Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but why in your first post did you type "My phone fell from its cradle onto the .... so I picked it up etc"

Why didn't you just say that it fell onto the dash rather than onto the .... ?

I think this may have contributed to the view that you've changed your story

This is an admin error on my behalf. I typed out my post but wasn't sure on the correct terminology, so I put ..... as a temporary pause to come back to, which I over looked and didn't do so.

I regret to say that I find that somewhat less than convincing.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
What did I have to gain by not revealing that information in the first place and how has it led me to change my story? if the phone fell into the footwell, onto the seat, etc, its irrelevant, the Police's witness statements say I was using it and that it was in my right hand. Okay, so lets say it fell into the footwell and I bent over and picked it up, has that changed any thing?

user1977

Gerrard00004 said:

Herzlos said:

Gerrard00004 said:
So how does the driver see I am looking forward and not on my phone if the passenger driver has turned his head to witness me slowing down and indicating into the slow lane?

According to their statement, you slowed down moments later and moved over. So I don't see any contradiction here.

The moving over part makes me assume the lane to your left was clear so they were potentially already aware that you may not have been paying attention. I don't think they'll be traffic police in a van, but they'll be used to seeing inattentive drivers all the time. I see a huge amount of drivers looking at their lap whilst driving.

Their assertion is that they observed you on a phone, confirmed it with each other and then when trying to get your registration details you'd discarded the phone, were slowing down and moving over.

I don't see how that fits with your story; where they happened to pass at the exact moment you were transferring the phone from dash to seat.

Given you claim you didn't even see them implies you weren't paynig enough attention which is probably what alerted them in the first place.

What would be interesting, but likely not relevant, is if they saw the phone itself or just the light from the phone and your innatentiveness.

Frankly, it sounds like you've been caught red handed, so I'd be inclined to just take the hit on it instead of wasting time and money trying to defend it, and pay more attention in future.

Answer me this, if you are driving and overtaking a vehicle at speed on the motorway, how often do you look left at the driver of the vehicle you are over taking?

Quite often, if they happen to be driving oddly, and probably much more if it was literally my job to detect this sort of offence.

Gerrard00004

paul_c123 said:

If you go to court, you'll need to make those same arguments, in a much more formal setting, with a much greater consequence if they are not successful. I'd use it as good practice.

It may well be that just before court, the prosecution withdraw the policeman driver's testimony and decide to rely on the policeman passenger alone. Do you have a robust defence against him accurately observing your mobile phone use?

I don't know enough about the defence process/practice at this moment in time to provide an answer. As it is, I would want a lot more factually evidence, including the email chain he refers to but has failed to provide.

Herzlos

Gerrard00004 said:

Answer me this, if you are driving and overtaking a vehicle at speed on the motorway, how often do you look left at the driver of the vehicle you are over taking? You state that you have seen many drivers looking at their lap, did you see them using a phone? or did you assume?

When I spot a driver that's not paying attention, I pay a lot more attention when I'm near them so that one of us can react. The fact that the police were looking at you means you probably already attracted their attention, and given that you didn't see them it'd imply you weren't paying attention for a while.

I can't think of any reason anyone driving a car would be spending a significant time looking at their lap that doesn't involve a phone. Looking at a map maybe? That's just as dangerous though. You can often tell from a distance that the vehicle isn't reacting as you'd expect especially if you're trained to look for it. 

You also need to remember that even if these police officers were on their first day of the job, they'll have had pretty decent training on spotting this sort of thing because distracted drivers and mobile phone use is rife. You can't compare a layman driver with a roadcraft trained police officer, as I *think* it's something they need to do before being allowed out.

To be honest this thread really feels like someone who's been quite fairly caught driving whilst using a phone for a period of time and is scrabbling for some kind of gotcha to get them off of it, using us as a sounding board.

The only advice I have here is to not bother; you're going to be trying to argue against people who have more experience both at driving and at legal arguments, against people who have no imperative to lie and will have heard every excuse in the book. You're going to need something spectacular to counter the statements of 2 police officers.

How many thousands of people do you think have gone into court for using a phone with driving and say something like "It fell onto my lap", "I was just moving it" or "I wasn't playing with my phone, I had an itchy knee" and how many of them do you think got away with it?