LGPS ill health retirement

Lemon_dr1zzle

madeye25 said:

Thank you, this is starting to make more sense now. 

The Durham process have not asked for details of her current role, at a different council. Therefore I imagine they're unaware. 

In the IHR report and form, she is assessed against her old job title that she worked for Durham County Council. 

The part about leaving after 31 March 2008 and unable to undertake gainful employment for the next 3 years is interesting, as both of those are true.

Her current role is a slightly different position, but for from a health perspective there isn't any difference. 

Either authority may become aware if they check the database available to all LGPS funds which shows of any other LGPS pension held elsewhere. She really does need to tell either one or both of the Funds about the other. 

madeye25

Interesting that at this point of the process Durham haven't asked details of her current role and whether she is a member of another LGPS and it would appear to me on the claimant to offer this information.

That being said, it is Durham Occupational Health my partner has been dealing with. It has now been passed onto Durham HR who will advise of a pension panels date. 

Perhaps it is normal that those missing details are established at this stage of the process, by the Durham pensions team? 

Lemon_dr1zzle

Scheme members should tell the pension funds if they start a new job at any other authority so the correct interfund regulations can be followed. This doesn’t always happen, so the scheme administrators should check the database they have access to before they pay retirements, refunds etc to ensure there are no other pensions held elsewhere. 

Sarahspangles

I think it’s useful for you to be taking stock at this point. You started the process of applying for ill health retirement within six months of a very serious diagnosis, and it’s now coming up to a year since this all started. It sounds like treatment has gone well so far, though you’re not out of the woods yet. It’s likely to be two or more years, rather than months, before it’s clear whether your partner will be able to work again.

Your partner is presumably on paid sick leave from her current role, and may be dismissed before you have any clarity about whether, and if so when, your partner will be well enough to work again. You haven’t started the process of applying for ill health retirement from the current employer in the hope that she will eventually be able to return to work there.

It’s not clear whether the panel will sign off ill health retirement for the deferred pension if they think your partner is currently keeping their options open to return to work in a similar role. Their advisor has advised it’s unlikely your partner will return to fitness within three years. That might be contradicted by you not having applied for ill health retirement for the current role.

Your original post implied that as a couple you were hoping to turn the deferred pension into capital rather than ongoing pension income. I’m sure you’re having a really tough time financially as well as emotionally.

If you hadn’t started the application last August, would you today? 

Marcon

Lemon_dr1zzle said:

Scheme members should tell the pension funds if they start a new job at any other authority so the correct interfund regulations can be followed. This doesn’t always happen, so the scheme administrators should check the database they have access to before they pay retirements, refunds etc to ensure there are no other pensions held elsewhere. 

It must be hard enough for OP to find their way around the regulations of this highly complex scheme, let alone know all the relevant questions to ask.

Given we have a couple of LGPS experts already on this thread, please may I throw in a question for them to answer, in the hope it will provide OP with useful/relevant information.

Would linking the two periods of LGPS membership be an option, and then applying for ill health retirement from the current role? I appreciate that would mean ending the current job, but the enhancements would be better(?) and the chances of being granted ill health retirement would also be better(?), given that OH in Durham have already confirmed she would meet the 'unable to undertake gainful employment within the next 3 years'.

Silvertabby

Marcon said:

Lemon_dr1zzle said:

Scheme members should tell the pension funds if they start a new job at any other authority so the correct interfund regulations can be followed. This doesn’t always happen, so the scheme administrators should check the database they have access to before they pay retirements, refunds etc to ensure there are no other pensions held elsewhere. 

It must be hard enough for OP to find their way around the regulations of this highly complex scheme, let alone know all the relevant questions to ask.

Given we have a couple of LGPS experts already on this thread, please may I throw in a question for them to answer, in the hope it will provide OP with useful/relevant information.

Would linking the two periods of LGPS membership be an option, and then applying for ill health retirement from the current role? I appreciate that would mean ending the current job, but the enhancements would be better(t?) and the chances of being granted ill health retirement would also be better(?), given that OH in Durham have already confirmed she would meet the 'unable to undertake gainful employment within the next 3 years'.

The option of combining would have been offered when this lady started her new job.   Or would have been if her current LGPS knew about her Durham service, which should have been declared on her new joiner forms, which specifically ask for details of all previous pensions.  Usual reason for opting not to combine benefits would be that the new post is on a lower salary.

The only way this could be looked at now would be if the Durham service had been listed on the new joiner paperwork, and that the new scheme adminstrators had missed it.  But even if that were the case, combining the records may not help.

Assessing eligibility for Ill Health retirement isn't an exact science, and different Drs may have different opinions.  The deferred post Drs assessment was based on that actual employment, whereas the current post Dr will have other criteria to consider, so a 'yes' from the former cannot be taken as a guaranteed 'yes' from the latter.

To be honest, I'm really concerned about this case - while I feel the utmost sympathy for this couple, the fact that Durham appear to be working in the dark about the current employment - and the intention to carry on working - is worrying.  OP, when your partner was assessed by the Durham Dr, was she asked if she was currently working?  PLEASE don't tell me that she just said 'not working' instead of 'on sick leave, but intend to return when I feel well enough'.

madeye25

Sarahspangles said:

I think it’s useful for you to be taking stock at this point. You started the process of applying for ill health retirement within six months of a very serious diagnosis, and it’s now coming up to a year since this all started. It sounds like treatment has gone well so far, though you’re not out of the woods yet. It’s likely to be two or more years, rather than months, before it’s clear whether your partner will be able to work again.

Your partner is presumably on paid sick leave from her current role, and may be dismissed before you have any clarity about whether, and if so when, your partner will be well enough to work again. You haven’t started the process of applying for ill health retirement from the current employer in the hope that she will eventually be able to return to work there.

It’s not clear whether the panel will sign off ill health retirement for the deferred pension if they think your partner is currently keeping their options open to return to work in a similar role. Their advisor has advised it’s unlikely your partner will return to fitness within three years. That might be contradicted by you not having applied for ill health retirement for the current role.

Your original post implied that as a couple you were hoping to turn the deferred pension into capital rather than ongoing pension income. I’m sure you’re having a really tough time financially as well as emotionally.

If you hadn’t started the application last August, would you today? 

Thank you for the reply it is much appreciated.

That sums up the situation well, however there is some additional context.  With my partners employers HR team I reached out to them in October 2024 when she became hospitalised and it was no longer appropriate for her to communicate with them (for a period, she couldn't communicate).

I shared the consultant letters with HR that summarised what you have stated above, from a medical perspective.

In this email to current employers HR I asked whether it would be appropriate for this case to be referred to their Occupational Health team, they took a month to respond (they responded in November 24) and advised that it may be appropriate to wait until early January 24, where they would then refer to Occupational Health - as they believed it made sense to see how my partners treatment was progressing.

As it stands I do not think the referral to Occupational Health has been made, I have emailed to check.  Current employers HR wanted to have a meeting with my partner, which still isn't appropriate.

This is now becoming frustrating with HR, it was known back in October how long recovery would take and that hasn't changed now, except getting pushed back due to the first stem cell transplant failing.

In response to the question about starting the application - yes I would today.  I see it as black and white.  Her employer will either continue to pay sick pay (a reduced rate of her salary) or they won't.  If they do, then along with other benefits there isn't a major issue.

If they don't, then there is an issue, which is why I am trying to help her maximise cashflow now, so that she has options and choices around the timing of her return to work (should it happen).

I do find it fascinating that my partners intentions are relevant in such a situation.  In black and white terms, she will either recover sufficiently to return to work, or she won't.  That isn't her choice, it is totally dependant on the outcome of the stem cell transplant, that is only fully known around 2 years post transplant (therefore Jan 2027).  Between now and then it is almost impossible to avoid complications that can further push that date out.

madeye25

Silvertabby said:

Marcon said:

Lemon_dr1zzle said:

Scheme members should tell the pension funds if they start a new job at any other authority so the correct interfund regulations can be followed. This doesn’t always happen, so the scheme administrators should check the database they have access to before they pay retirements, refunds etc to ensure there are no other pensions held elsewhere. 

It must be hard enough for OP to find their way around the regulations of this highly complex scheme, let alone know all the relevant questions to ask.

Given we have a couple of LGPS experts already on this thread, please may I throw in a question for them to answer, in the hope it will provide OP with useful/relevant information.

Would linking the two periods of LGPS membership be an option, and then applying for ill health retirement from the current role? I appreciate that would mean ending the current job, but the enhancements would be better(t?) and the chances of being granted ill health retirement would also be better(?), given that OH in Durham have already confirmed she would meet the 'unable to undertake gainful employment within the next 3 years'.

The option of combining would have been offered when this lady started her new job.   Or would have been if her current LGPS knew about her Durham service, which should have been declared on her new joiner forms, which specifically ask for details of all previous pensions.  Usual reason for opting not to combine benefits would be that the new post is on a lower salary.

The only way this could be looked at now would be if the Durham service had been listed on the new joiner paperwork, and that the new scheme adminstrators had missed it.  But even if that were the case, combining the records may not help.

Assessing eligibility for Ill Health retirement isn't an exact science, and different Drs may have different opinions.  The deferred post Drs assessment was based on that actual employment, whereas the current post Dr will have other criteria to consider, so a 'yes' from the former cannot be taken as a guaranteed 'yes' from the latter.

To be honest, I'm really concerned about this case - while I feel the utmost sympathy for this couple, the fact that Durham appear to be working in the dark about the current employment - and the intention to carry on working - is worrying.  OP, when your partner was assessed by the Durham Dr, was she asked if she was currently working?  PLEASE don't tell me that she just said 'not working' instead of 'on sick leave, but intend to return when I feel well enough'.

You are making me dig back through the communication made between my Partner (or myself) and various parties, which I actually appreciate as this is a complicated process, and new to me.

Current employer HR advised that my partner has 8 years continuous service which was 2022 to date for current employer and 2016 to 2022 for Durham County Council.

Therefore HR records show the continuous service and transfer from one local authority to the other. 

I can see my partner emailed Durham pensions upon leaving in 2022 to request advice as she was moving to a new role and new local authority, they responded to say that the pension with Durham would become deferred, or she could provide details to the new pension provider and they could organise a transfer.  Obviously no transfer was organised.

Back in October 2024 a form titled "FRM086b - Request for Def Bens" was completed and signed by my partner, I then posted it to Durham OH - within this form it asked for her Occupation, which was completed.

During the process my partner did not speak to the Durham Occupational Health Doctor, although I did speak to him to help guide him directly to the correct consultants.  The reason why she didn't speak to the Doctor is he had organised an appointment at a time where she was undergoing chemotherapy, so it was a fairly straight forward reason as to why she couldn't attend the Durham OH appointment and they left it at that.

Therefore Durham County Council had her current occupation, they knew she had employment and it was quite clear she wasn't able to work due to being in hospital.


Again I do not understand why my partners intentions to work again are relevant and why she would need to declare this at any point?  Her mindset is simple, if she is capable of work she will work, but it isn't her choice. Granted she can do everything asked of her by the consultants (medication, appointments etc) but that is a given, what will come in the future is out of her hands.

What if she said she couldn't be bothered to work regardless of the outcome of her health? Would that really matter? I genuinely don't understand.


I do really appreciate all of the posts, some things are becoming clearer and although some answers aren't what I want to hear, at least it will not come as a total surprise if she doesn't get access to any of her LGPS benefits.

Sarahspangles

madeye25 said:

Sarahspangles said:

I think it’s useful for you to be taking stock at this point. You started the process of applying for ill health retirement within six months of a very serious diagnosis, and it’s now coming up to a year since this all started. It sounds like treatment has gone well so far, though you’re not out of the woods yet. It’s likely to be two or more years, rather than months, before it’s clear whether your partner will be able to work again.

Your partner is presumably on paid sick leave from her current role, and may be dismissed before you have any clarity about whether, and if so when, your partner will be well enough to work again. You haven’t started the process of applying for ill health retirement from the current employer in the hope that she will eventually be able to return to work there.

It’s not clear whether the panel will sign off ill health retirement for the deferred pension if they think your partner is currently keeping their options open to return to work in a similar role. Their advisor has advised it’s unlikely your partner will return to fitness within three years. That might be contradicted by you not having applied for ill health retirement for the current role.

Your original post implied that as a couple you were hoping to turn the deferred pension into capital rather than ongoing pension income. I’m sure you’re having a really tough time financially as well as emotionally.

If you hadn’t started the application last August, would you today? 

Thank you for the reply it is much appreciated.

That sums up the situation well, however there is some additional context.  With my partners employers HR team I reached out to them in October 2024 when she became hospitalised and it was no longer appropriate for her to communicate with them (for a period, she couldn't communicate).

I shared the consultant letters with HR that summarised what you have stated above, from a medical perspective.

In this email to current employers HR I asked whether it would be appropriate for this case to be referred to their Occupational Health team, they took a month to respond (they responded in November 24) and advised that it may be appropriate to wait until early January 24, where they would then refer to Occupational Health - as they believed it made sense to see how my partners treatment was progressing.

As it stands I do not think the referral to Occupational Health has been made, I have emailed to check.  Current employers HR wanted to have a meeting with my partner, which still isn't appropriate.

This is now becoming frustrating with HR, it was known back in October how long recovery would take and that hasn't changed now, except getting pushed back due to the first stem cell transplant failing.

In response to the question about starting the application - yes I would today.  I see it as black and white.  Her employer will either continue to pay sick pay (a reduced rate of her salary) or they won't.  If they do, then along with other benefits there isn't a major issue.

If they don't, then there is an issue, which is why I am trying to help her maximise cashflow now, so that she has options and choices around the timing of her return to work (should it happen).

I do find it fascinating that my partners intentions are relevant in such a situation.  In black and white terms, she will either recover sufficiently to return to work, or she won't.  That isn't her choice, it is totally dependant on the outcome of the stem cell transplant, that is only fully known around 2 years post transplant (therefore Jan 2027).  Between now and then it is almost impossible to avoid complications that can further push that date out.

Thanks, and don’t feel you have to respond, you’ve got a lot on. Silvertabby and Lemondrizzle are the real experts I’m just a former local government manager and that experience is fast becoming historic.

I wonder if your partner’s current employer are content to take a slow pace in case there’s more clarity if they wait a little. But I assume they’re also required to work within policies that mean that at some point her entitlement to sick pay will fall to the statutory minimum, and/or they’re required to move to end her contract. I'd want to understand if it’s more advantageous to retire as an employee than former employee, if it comes to that being the outcome she needs, and if so when an application would need to be initiated.

I think one reason this is causing concern is the longer term scenarios. For example, where your partner wants to resume her career, but her ‘official’ status with one or both employers is that this person is a pensioner of the scheme they belong to. There are rules about taking and contributing to most public sector pensions at the same time. I know there are some specialisms like development control where the pool of local employers is limited to the local authorities in driving distance. So it could close down options.

In the meantime, from what you’ve said it’s reasonable for her (or you on her behalf) not to have commenced an application to retire under the current scheme. I wonder if the former employer understanding where you stand in relation to her current employment will mean they want to defer their decision. It may even be in your partner’s interests.

I hope she continues to do well.

Silvertabby

madeye25 said:

Silvertabby said:

Marcon said:

Lemon_dr1zzle said:

Scheme members should tell the pension funds if they start a new job at any other authority so the correct interfund regulations can be followed. This doesn’t always happen, so the scheme administrators should check the database they have access to before they pay retirements, refunds etc to ensure there are no other pensions held elsewhere. 

It must be hard enough for OP to find their way around the regulations of this highly complex scheme, let alone know all the relevant questions to ask.

Given we have a couple of LGPS experts already on this thread, please may I throw in a question for them to answer, in the hope it will provide OP with useful/relevant information.

Would linking the two periods of LGPS membership be an option, and then applying for ill health retirement from the current role? I appreciate that would mean ending the current job, but the enhancements would be better(t?) and the chances of being granted ill health retirement would also be better(?), given that OH in Durham have already confirmed she would meet the 'unable to undertake gainful employment within the next 3 years'.

The option of combining would have been offered when this lady started her new job.   Or would have been if her current LGPS knew about her Durham service, which should have been declared on her new joiner forms, which specifically ask for details of all previous pensions.  Usual reason for opting not to combine benefits would be that the new post is on a lower salary.

The only way this could be looked at now would be if the Durham service had been listed on the new joiner paperwork, and that the new scheme adminstrators had missed it.  But even if that were the case, combining the records may not help.

Assessing eligibility for Ill Health retirement isn't an exact science, and different Drs may have different opinions.  The deferred post Drs assessment was based on that actual employment, whereas the current post Dr will have other criteria to consider, so a 'yes' from the former cannot be taken as a guaranteed 'yes' from the latter.

To be honest, I'm really concerned about this case - while I feel the utmost sympathy for this couple, the fact that Durham appear to be working in the dark about the current employment - and the intention to carry on working - is worrying.  OP, when your partner was assessed by the Durham Dr, was she asked if she was currently working?  PLEASE don't tell me that she just said 'not working' instead of 'on sick leave, but intend to return when I feel well enough'.

You are making me dig back through the communication made between my Partner (or myself) and various parties, which I actually appreciate as this is a complicated process, and new to me.

Current employer HR advised that my partner has 8 years continuous service which was 2022 to date for current employer and 2016 to 2022 for Durham County Council.

Therefore HR records show the continuous service and transfer from one local authority to the other. 

I can see my partner emailed Durham pensions upon leaving in 2022 to request advice as she was moving to a new role and new local authority, they responded to say that the pension with Durham would become deferred, or she could provide details to the new pension provider and they could organise a transfer.  Obviously no transfer was organised.

Back in October 2024 a form titled "FRM086b - Request for Def Bens" was completed and signed by my partner, I then posted it to Durham OH - within this form it asked for her Occupation, which was completed.

During the process my partner did not speak to the Durham Occupational Health Doctor, although I did speak to him to help guide him directly to the correct consultants.  The reason why she didn't speak to the Doctor is he had organised an appointment at a time where she was undergoing chemotherapy, so it was a fairly straight forward reason as to why she couldn't attend the Durham OH appointment and they left it at that.

Therefore Durham County Council had her current occupation, they knew she had employment and it was quite clear she wasn't able to work due to being in hospital.


Again I do not understand why my partners intentions to work again are relevant and why she would need to declare this at any point?  Her mindset is simple, if she is capable of work she will work, but it isn't her choice. Granted she can do everything asked of her by the consultants (medication, appointments etc) but that is a given, what will come in the future is out of her hands.

What if she said she couldn't be bothered to work regardless of the outcome of her health? Would that really matter? I genuinely don't understand.


I do really appreciate all of the posts, some things are becoming clearer and although some answers aren't what I want to hear, at least it will not come as a total surprise if she doesn't get access to any of her LGPS benefits.

In the case of the transfer, did your partner tell her new LGPS that she had deferred benefits with Durham that she may be interested in transferring?  If not, then nothing would have happened.  Durham would only have been able to organise a transfer on receipt of your partners written confirmation (on a form supplied by her new LGPS) confirming that she had been given the relevant figures and wanted to go ahead with the transfer.  

It sounds like the Durham Dr approved the request based on her medical records, rather than his own physical exam.  This is unusual, but not unheard of in the case of serious illness.  Her current post Occ Health Dr will also have access to her medical records/reports but, in the case of a Tiered/enhanced Ill Health retirement, they may apply a more rigorous checking process.  

I do  appreciate the difficult situation you find yourselves in, and wish I could offer more definite information.  But, sadly, I can't as the only people with the final say are the two separate Occ Health Drs.  All I can suggest is that your partner applies for Ill Health from her current post and sees what happens.