Online Purchase Won't Allow Refund - Is THis Right?

born_again

Jenni_D said:

The OP has said the contract cost was £90 ... where would that fit in the goodwill spectrum?

Way out side it even on a good day. 
But Op used PP & no idea if their reps would have the same scope in cases.

MeteredOut

DullGreyGuy said:

MeteredOut said:

born_again said:

MeteredOut said:

I suspect the T&Cs are trying to say that after 14 days you do not have a right to cancel, but you're right that "Once the order status has advanced" bit is not clear. But, it does not state that cancellation is allowed up to production starting.

I'd try using that bad wording as a way to get a refund. As per above, how did you pay? You could try a chargeback via your bank/card, using that bad wording as a reason, stating you thought it meat cancellation until production started, but I think you'll be relying on goodwill from the supplier for that to be accepted.

Sadly not a reason for a chargeback 🤷‍♀️

I'd argue that ambiguous or unclear cancellation rights would be a valid reason for a refund.

How are they ambiguous or unclear? 14 days from date of purchase unless you've already started the process in which case no right of cancellation. 

The T&Cs as provided by the OP are

• Custom-Fitted Products: Orders can be cancelled within 14 days of purchase if they have not yet entered the production process.

• Once the order status has advanced, cancellations and refunds are no longer possible."

I'm glad you find those clear with regards to cancellation, but I certainly don't. What does "status has advanced" mean? Do you not think some could take it to relate to the "production process" mentioned in the previous clause?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Jenni_D said:

Ergates said:

If they'd made the products then they would be allowed to refuse a refund for "change of mind" (given they're custom).  However, as they haven't actually received any details yet, they obviously can't have started any manufacturing process.  Therefore I don't believe they *can* say "No refunds".

What they *could* do is deduct an amount from the refund to either cover loss of profit OR to cover any costs they've already incurred from your order (which would most likely be zero here).

I'm not sure if the loss of profits is allowed for products like this rather than for providing a service, as it's not as if accepting your order prevented them from accepting another.

This is all assuming they're a UK company.

The problem with your reasoning is that the OP has no right to cancel the order at all, as it was for a personalised product. It is irrelevant that "work" hasn't started as yet - as I said earlier, it was the OP who was seeking to breach/cancel the contract, not the company.

I believe Ergates is referring to unfair terms from the CRA of requiring a consumer who fails to fulfil his obligations under the contract to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation.

If OP or his friend doesn't go for the ear thing booking then the company should keep costs or loss of profit and refund the rest. 

Given this is £90 and, unless I've missed it, not sure if that is full payment or a part upfront payment, it's likely going to be a battle for maybe £40-£50

Jenni_D

I understand that ... but in this case the company is still willing to honour the contract (or offer an alternative option). I just really don't think they are being unreasonable here. 🤷‍♀️

Okell

I'm not sure anyone can give an answer based on the scant information provided by the OP?

For example - has a contract even been formed yet?  If a contract hasn't been formed yet can't the OP still withdraw his offer even though an order has been accepted?

And waht does "order status has advanced" mean?

The OP has only provided an excerpt of the firm's T&Cs.  I've already asked him to provide a link or the name of the company but he hasn't done so yet.  I think we need to see the full T&Cs to understand exactly what is happening here

AfxTwn

Hi, sorry for not providing information on the company/product specifically, I didn't want to give details in case it caused any problems but the company is Snugs and here is the website: https://snugs.com/?srsltid=AfmBOoofBu8jKB8rDVpONcfrVv6rMjoieQ_CdbBIkITXtv1wL8_uMspc

Their refund policy is found here: https://snugs.com/policies/refund-policy and their T's & C's are here: https://snugs.com/policies/terms-of-service

The product I ordered was the Zen custom sleep earplugs: https://snugs.com/products/zen which were on offer during the Black Friday week and so I got them for just under £90, this was full payment (by PayPal) but doesn't include the cost of having ear-impressions made at an audiologist. It doesn't make that clear on the product page but when you click on the link to get a custom fit in the UK, it displays this page: https://snugs.com/pages/custom-fitting-in-uk where it says you need to book an appointment at an audiologist yourself and pay for the impressions. You then send these to Snugs who then make the earplugs from the impressions.

To clear up a little confusion of this statement in the refunds criteria: "Once the order status has advanced, cancellations and refunds are no longer possible." (I had explained this in a previous comment). I phoned Snugs and asked them to explain that and they said that by "advanced" they mean once they have received the ear-impressions and the order has advanced onto the production phase, you can't then cancel the order as they have already started making them and as they are custom-fit, unless there is something wrong with them, you can't cancel the order. You essentially have just 14 days from the day you place your initial order and pay the money to actually cancel the order, after this cancellation isn't possible and if the order has advanced to being made before the 14 days is up (so if you send them your ear-impressions during the 14 day period), you can't cancel the order. I hope that makes sense.

As I took so long to actually request a cancellation (due to circumstances beyond my control), I am willing to accept whatever the outcome is. I just wanted to know if the 14 day cancellation period was right as it seems quite short to me. For instance, I ordered these quite close to Christmas and had I heard back from my friend after the New Year and they said they didn't want them, I still wouldn't have been able to get a refund as it would have been past the 14 day period which I didn't know was part of their refund/cancellation policy.

I am willing to accept that their policy is legally right but it seems a little unfair (regardless of me asking for a refund 4 months or 3 weeks later) that they get to keep the £90 for doing nothing. I have received no goods, they haven't had to make anything or incur any large costs beyond clerical etc so I thought perhaps I would still be able to cancel the order or at the very least just pay a small cancellation fee and receive the rest.

It is what it is though and it's my fault so I don't want to get into a big argument about it or have people telling me off etc. Perhaps my issue is a moral/principle one that has no relevance in a business/legal sense so that's fine and I accept that, as I said, it's a lesson learned for me.

Looking into the costs of having custom-made earplugs for sleeping a little more and it would have been cheaper to go to Specsavers as they would have done the ear-impressions and made the earplugs for £80 all-in. I went into all this without knowing anything really and just thought it would be a good present for a friend who was suffering with lack of sleep due to noisy neighbours (they had tried over-the-counter earplugs but they didn't fit right). Fortunately, they have since moved out and so the earplugs are no longer needed and so I thought I would get my money back and give it to my friend to get something else.

As I can't get a refund and I don't want any earplugs etc myself, my friend is going to go ahead and get some ear-impressions done anyway and get the earplugs made by Snugs. It will end up being more expensive than if done elsewhere (and would have been even more expensive if I had paid the full non-Black Friday price at Snugs), but that's fine as it was my mistake and I am the one who has "broke the contract" even though I never signed a contract or considered it as such but it's just one of those fun online-shopping things where legally and technically the shop/website can say you are entering into a contract just by virtue of you actually buying and paying for something online.

Anyway, feel free to have a look into this further if any of you would like to but I won't be trying to get the money back or argue with the company as it's not a large amount of money and I have a lot more going on in my life so I don't need the extra headache.

Thanks very much for all the advice and people trying to make sense of it, I was just trying to ask a question due to my naivety of general consumer rights and being a little confused of their wording in their refund policy.

Okell

@AfxTwn -  thanks for the links.

If you don't want to pursue it any further that's fair enough.  There might be an argument that their T&Cs are unfair and can't be enforced if they won't refund you anything even if they've done nothing at all apart from accepting your order, but it might not be a clearcut argument and might not be worth the hassle for you.

One of the reasons I wanted to see their T&Cs was to see what they say about when a contract was formed between you and Snugs.  If a contract had not yet been formed it would have been possible for you to withdraw your offer to buy and to get a refund.  Unfortunately theri T&Cs are quite specific that a contrcat is formed when they email you confirming your order.  (Which I presume they'd already done in your case?)

Just so you know for future reference, when you buy anything under a "distance contract" (basically online or by 'phone) you can legally cancel the contract for a full refund within 14 days of delivery of the goods.  It's a bit more complicated then that but that's the basic idea.

Unfortunately that legal right doesn't apply to goods that are (1) personalised or made to the customer's specifications, or (2) sealed for health or hygiene purposes.

So I think you wouldn't have been able to exercise your legal right to cancel.

What is a bit interesting in your case is that even though the goods would have clearly been "customised", and therefore not eligible for the legal right to cancel, Snugs would still have allowed you to cancel within 14 days of purchase if you had been aware of it.  And of course it's also unusual that a trader wouldn't have to refund anything at all even though they've done nothing.  Which doesn't seem right at all.

Others (like @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head) might have some comments about whether this contract term is unfair, but if you are content not to pursue it, it's probably not worth the hassle.

AfxTwn

I think the main issue is that a lot of issues of refunds are around me having received the item in the first place and this doesn't apply to me. It hadn't even got to that stage and is still technically in the "not advanced" stage but unfortunately has gone way past the 14 days cancellation period. I think the idea of the 14 days is if you do change your mind and not want to go ahead with the order at all, a bit of a colling-off period if you like. But as soon as you go into the advanced stage of production, then you can't cancel at all and would only be able to return the earplugs should there be something wrong with them and then pursue a refund.

In my situation, it's as though I just placed the order this week and have changed my mind and wanted to cancel as nothing has gone into production or been sent out to me.

I think Snugs will just argue that they clearly state on their website that you have 14 days to cancel and that they have offered me an alternative. I'm afraid I don't have the appetite to go into a long battle with them over this as I have many other things going on which are causing me a lot of stress and this is something relatively minor. Had it been over £100, I might have been more inclined to take it further or if I had a solid case and some legal recourse behind me to prove I am right but I don't.

I can totally understand them not wanting to refund me if they had started to make the item or had sent it out to me, especially given it's not only a custom item but also one that you wear personally, but I think perhaps if a customer hasn't gone ahead with the order (in terms of sending them the ear-impressions) then maybe after say 30 days or so of Snugs not having received or heard anything, then perhaps a reminder email could be sent out to the customer to remind them to send the impressions or letting them know before the 14 days is up should they wish to cancel.

I'd also like to know why customers only have 14 days to cancel anyway? Why can't this be an indefinite period of time but as soon as the order has advanced to being produced then their right to cancel ends? It seems this 14 day period ties a customer in to having to have something no matter what. Again, I'm probably just being naive here. I just feel like the seller hasn't had any kind of hardship and hasn't been put out of pocket by me wanting to cancel, it's just they don't want to lose the custom and want to guarantee that £90. I don't see why it makes a difference if I cancel 5 days, 10 days, 14 days or 14 weeks after I place the order, as long as they haven't actually made anything or sent anything out to me, what difference does it make? It's as though I am being penalised for my lateness in cancelling. If I had pre-booked a room in a hotel and had to pay a deposit and then cancelled, I might lose the deposit but wouldn't still be expected to pay for the whole room/stay? But then again, my £90 here wasn't a deposit so that logic doesn't apply lol.

I think I am coming at this all wrong and from a fair and moral standpoint and that just doesn't apply at all. Nevermind, I will get the earplugs anyway.

Thanks very much for your explanations of things though.