UKPC - Parking Charge - Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay - Horns road retail park

Kronos901

Hi everyone, 

Hoping you can help with the UKPC parking charge questions I have below. The current stage of the process is stage 4 below where I appealed the parking charge and have received the letter below back from UKPC. So, looking for some advice on whether I should respond with my planned response or leave it and wait for the POPLA stage to issue my full appeal.

 I have both parties communications outlined below along with relevant images.
(Index of the events to date and planned responses)
1. Original Notice to Keeper (Front and  back).
2. Final Reminder Notice to Keeper
3. My appeal text to UKPC Through their online process. (Also images attached). 
4. UKPC Response to my appeal.
5. My Planned response for POPLA but want to know if this would be something I send back to UKPC for an additional response? (Taken mostly from previous forum posts). 

Any advise as to what the best course of action is now is greatly appreciated. 

1. Original Notice to Keeper (Front and back).
   
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2. Final Reminder Notice to Keeper
   
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3. My appeal text to UKPC Through their online process. (Also images attached). 
   
   

   I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement.

   The parking terms and charge are displayed in sub 0.75‑inch lettering. According to UK Gov HSE guidelines, such warning text is advised to have maximum visibility up to ~7 m. However, evidence shows that the sign is positioned at least 21 m from the parking space—over three times the recommended viewing distance [3.2]. From the driver’s perspective, this placement renders the sign unreadable, negating any claim of proper notification. Photographic evidence demonstrates that from the entrance to the parking space there are no signs within the 7‑m visibility range. Instead, signs are sporadically located along the edges of the car park [1.1/1.2]. Consequently, a driver entering and parking in the specific bay would not have been afforded the opportunity to see or read the full parking charge terms.

   Under (POFA) 2012 and the BPA Code of Practice, clear and prominent signage is essential for forming a binding parking contract. The operator’s failure to display the terms in a legible and accessible manner means no valid contractual agreement was established. Without adequate notice of the parking charge, there is no basis for assuming consent to such onerous terms.

   My attached photo also reveals that the parking bay is not fully fit for purpose. A tree is not centrally located among the painted bays, which further impedes a driver by forcing them to park on marked lines due to uneven bay layouts not suitable for modern cars [2.1]. This reinforces that the parking area is inadequately designed and signposted.

   Given these significant deficiencies in signage and bay design, the statutory requirements of POFA 2012 and the BPA Code of Practice have not been met. The inadequate notice renders the parking charge unenforceable. I am confident if not dismissed this case will prevail at POPLA.
   
   (Appendix 3.2)
   
   
   (Appendix 1.2)
   
   (Appendix 2.1)
   
   (Appendix 1.1)
   
   
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4. UKPC Response to my appeal
   
   
   
   
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5. My Planned response for POPLA but want to know if this would be something I send back to UKPC for an additional response. (Taken mostly from previous forum posts).
   

   https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6017918/court-defence-for-parking-eye-comments-on-draft-please
   
   
   

   
   
   (Appendix 1.1) 
   
   
   (Appendix 1.2)
   
   
   (Appendix 2.1)
   
   
   (Appendix 3.1)
   
   
   (Appendix 3.2)
   
   (Appendix 4.1)
   
   
   (Appendix 5.1)
   
   

   (Appendix 5.2)
   
   
   (Appendix 6.1)
   
   
   (Appendix 6.2)
   
   

Kronos901

Occured to me that I did not include the photos taken by the UKPC warden, so have attached these below. 

Coupon-mad

looking for some advice on whether I should respond with my planned response or leave it and wait for the POPLA stage to issue my full appeal.

Neither.

You don't respond to the UKPC letter asking who was driving, you ignore that.

But there's probably no point trying POPLA for this one. No paying it though.

POPLA will uphold the PCN because the car was parked over the line.

I expect you'd agree this wasn't the best parking and in a retail park you're setting yourself up for a PCN if not straightening the car before leaving it. Private parking ticketers could well be lurking in a UKPC car park. I know the tree cuts off a corner but the car could have fitted in within the lines, IMHO.

Having said that, £100 is a massive price to pay  an unregulated industry and we know that UKPC use DCB Legal to sue.  They discontinue most cases before hearings, when court claims are defended.

Therefore, if it was me I'd probably sit tight and not try POPLA unless you fancy 'giving it a go' in the knowledge it might not work in this case.

The only real grounds I see would be the complete LACK of signs in your photos in any of the wider shots and/or in those bays. If the ticketer has had to walk to a brick wall side of a building to find a sign, then that doesn't meet the high bar in ParkingEye v Beavis and the CRA 2015 requirement for prominence. Where are the contractual signs in the car park, beside every few bays? Missing!

Don't use that photo with the tape measure. The sign in close-up looks clear and the £100 is in bold. So don't use that pic if trying POPLA.

Kronos901

Thank you appreciate the feedback. 
If I do give POPLA stage a punt will definately focus more on the lack of signage as there was really none readable around the space or in the route getting to the space. 
Will take out the upclose photo with the measurment!

Is it a requirment to ask for the POPLA code from UKPC, or will this just be issued at some point if I don't respond?

Gr1pr

The latter,  ukpc will provide it with the rejection 

xjaknifex

Coupon-mad said:

looking for some advice on whether I should respond with my planned response or leave it and wait for the POPLA stage to issue my full appeal.

Neither.

You don't respond to the UKPC letter asking who was driving, you ignore that.

But there's probably no point trying POPLA for this one. No paying it though.

POPLA will uphold the PCN because the car was parked over the line.

I expect you'd agree this wasn't the best parking and in a retail park you're setting yourself up for a PCN if not straightening the car before leaving it. Private parking ticketers could well be lurking in a UKPC car park. I know the tree cuts off a corner but the car could have fitted in within the lines, IMHO.

Having said that, £100 is a massive price to pay  an unregulated industry and we know that UKPC use DCB Legal to sue.  They discontinue most cases before hearings, when court claims are defended.

Therefore, if it was me I'd probably sit tight and not try POPLA unless you fancy 'giving it a go' in the knowledge it might not work in this case.

The only real grounds I see would be the complete LACK of signs in your photos in any of the wider shots and/or in those bays. If the ticketer has had to walk to a brick wall side of a building to find a sign, then that doesn't meet the high bar in ParkingEye v Beavis and the CRA 2015 requirement for prominence. Where are the contractual signs in the car park, beside every few bays? Missing!

Don't use that photo with the tape measure. The sign in close-up looks clear and the £100 is in bold. So don't use that pic if trying POPLA.

I am dealing with UKPC with the same issue, when you say to not respond to UKPC re who was driving, what are the possible consequences? Are they likely to just drop it completely?

Umkomaas

xjaknifex said:

Coupon-mad said:

looking for some advice on whether I should respond with my planned response or leave it and wait for the POPLA stage to issue my full appeal.

Neither.

You don't respond to the UKPC letter asking who was driving, you ignore that.

But there's probably no point trying POPLA for this one. No paying it though.

POPLA will uphold the PCN because the car was parked over the line.

I expect you'd agree this wasn't the best parking and in a retail park you're setting yourself up for a PCN if not straightening the car before leaving it. Private parking ticketers could well be lurking in a UKPC car park. I know the tree cuts off a corner but the car could have fitted in within the lines, IMHO.

Having said that, £100 is a massive price to pay  an unregulated industry and we know that UKPC use DCB Legal to sue.  They discontinue most cases before hearings, when court claims are defended.

Therefore, if it was me I'd probably sit tight and not try POPLA unless you fancy 'giving it a go' in the knowledge it might not work in this case.

The only real grounds I see would be the complete LACK of signs in your photos in any of the wider shots and/or in those bays. If the ticketer has had to walk to a brick wall side of a building to find a sign, then that doesn't meet the high bar in ParkingEye v Beavis and the CRA 2015 requirement for prominence. Where are the contractual signs in the car park, beside every few bays? Missing!

Don't use that photo with the tape measure. The sign in close-up looks clear and the £100 is in bold. So don't use that pic if trying POPLA.

I am dealing with UKPC with the same issue, when you say to not respond to UKPC re who was driving,

1. what are the possible consequences? 

2. Are they likely to just drop it completely?

1. You'll receive a rejection notice and a POPLA code

2. No

Follow the course of the original poster's progress and take action on your case similarly, or if you need further forum advice, please start a new thread of your own. 

Coupon-mad

xjaknifex said:

Coupon-mad said:

looking for some advice on whether I should respond with my planned response or leave it and wait for the POPLA stage to issue my full appeal.

Neither.

You don't respond to the UKPC letter asking who was driving, you ignore that.

But there's probably no point trying POPLA for this one. No paying it though.

I am dealing with UKPC with the same issue, when you say to not respond to UKPC re who was driving, what are the possible consequences? Are they likely to just drop it completely?

There are no repercussions as long as you don't move house & not tell them, or do something daft like ignore a Claim Form.

Have you missed all the UKPC court claim threads where they use DCB Legal then discontinue when cases are defended?

xjaknifex

Thanks. I haven't seen all the other posts yet, just found this on UKPC. Will take a look.

Car1980

Popla won't uphold on signage unless it's defaced or damaged. Signage is BPA audited "apparently", so finding against it would mean their paymasters are in the wrong and could void all that particular PPC's signage nationwide. So they won't do it.