Section 75 claim for used car

GoingMad24

Grumpy_chap said:

In order to pursue a claim under consumer rights / S75, the OP will really need to be able to articulate what the actual root cause of the fault was.  That is not clear from the thread so far.  

Not every fault on a 5yo 80k car would be grounds for rejection.

It may be possible that the Trader has treated the return as a normally trade in and not a rejection under consumer rights.

With regard to the bank, are both the Husband's Debit Card and the OP's Credit Card with the same bank?

Under S75, the CC is liable jointly and severally with the Trader for the full value of the purchase, irrespective of whether part of the purchase was completed by other means.  The Creditor - Debtor - Supplier triangle has to be in place.  Is it? 
In whose name is the purchase order paperwork? 
In whose name is (was) the car registered?

It rather sounds as though the bank are considering this as a Chargeback on the Husband's Debit Card and not as S75 claim on the OP's CC.

I had spoken to consumer rights and the said given they had attempted to fix the issuestill twice i had grounds to reject the vehicle and it should be a reasonable reduction to the purchase price paid. Unfortunately they could not offer any calculator/ way of judging fairness but that it shouldn't be go my deteriment. 

I've had cars in my time alot older and an awful lot less money that didn't make these noises, they were ridiculous.... a car steering shouldn't be making knocking noises under any circumstances I would have thought.....🤷‍♀️

I would say they have treated it as a straight forward trade in and tbh after I spoke the the owner I was glad get anything of them as he was so rude!

Does the way he's treated the return make a difference to my case?

Yes, my credit card and our joint account/ debit cards are all with the same bank. And they just keep saying they havnt much experience of this and how it's all very complicated..... 

Car was bought and registered in my name. All paperwork. 

Yes, it does the bank arnt filing me with confidence tbh, it took several phone calls to eventually get this far with them. I asked why it wasn't being raised in my name as the credit card holder and they said it'd have to be in Husband's name? 🤷‍♀️

Anyway this has all being a very expensive lesson between making sure all cards used are in the same name and buying this car in the first place!!!😥

GoingMad24

Grumpy_chap said:

born_again said:

You mean breach of contract &/or misrepresentation


From Op
Debit Card the one I used was my husbands but it's a joint account. 
Joint account, SOLE cards. You should not be using their car & knowing their PIn 

Well, yes, you are correct.  BUT being able to articulate the fault is an essential part of establishing the breach of contract or breach of consumer rights:
SADFART
Satisfactory Quality
As 
Described
Fit for Purpose
And Last a
Reasonable Amount of
Time

The "satisfactory quality" on a used car does not mean "perfect".  A fault that is fixable at reasonable cost would not be grounds to reject.

GoingMad24 said:

Do you mean I'm in breach of contract &/or misrepresentation?

This was a joint purchase, my husband was present and used his card as I has forgot purse. 

No, you would need to establish that the garage was in breach of contract or misrepresented.


Can you clarify:
 - Are the bank treating this as a chargeback case on your husbands debit card?  Or as S75 on your CC?
 - In whose name is the order paperwork and documentation?

Maybe I was too quick giving the actual car back when I didn't have any paperwork from them with work carried out etc. 

All i know is what I was told they changed control arms, top mounts and greased rose joints. ( although I've since been told rose joints are a sealed unit and if the start giving bother they should be changed) the noises returned after this- the creaking noises etc I was advised could be power steering / rack. 🤷‍♀️ I am not a mechanic unfortunately but the noises were not normal. If you heard this car diving past you'd say that a ball of scrap.....

I was under the belief aslong as the garage had attempted to fix the issue at least once I could reject the car.....

How do I establish the garage was in breach of contract or misrepresented? 

I do not know what the bank are doing- I can't speak directly to the cards dispute team and the advisors don't really know anything. The person spoke to yesterday seemed to be suggesting they would have to raise a Chargeback first before they could go to the credit card company....?

All of this is something I have zero experience of hence why I've turned up here looking for advice. 

Thank you for your help

born_again

GoingMad24 said:

I do not know what the bank are doing- I can't speak directly to the cards dispute team and the advisors don't really know anything. The person spoke to yesterday seemed to be suggesting they would have to raise a Chargeback first before they could go to the credit card company....?

All of this is something I have zero experience of hence why I've turned up here looking for advice. 

Thank you for your help

Until dispute team look at the case. Then they will have a better idea. Front line staff have no idea on dispute/S75 process. It is not a simple process. As it relates to card regulations.
There would be no chargeback as car was not faulty when received, nor does it cover what you perceive what is a excessive charge for the 6K miles you did.

S75 you have to prove that the retailer has breach of contract &/or misrepresentation. Given they has taken car back, then they have done all that is required of them.

Many take the charge per mile the same as Gov do @45p per mile. Which would be £2700. Again this would not really be something S75 would look at. As there is no fixed amount. It would be down to you to discuss with retailer what you feel would be a fair deduction.
 

Grumpy_chap

MattMattMattUK said:

6,000 miles at 45p per mile would normally be reasonable, so £2,700. 

born_again said:

Many take the charge per mile the same as Gov do @45p per mile. Which would be £2700. 
 

I am not sure that the £0.45 per mile is fair or reasonable.
That amount permitted by HMRC for business mileage is to cover all the costs of running the car:
 - depreciation
 - maintenance
 - insurance
 - break down policy
 - VED
 - petrol

The Dealer has not incurred all these costs.

GoingMad24

Thank youborn_again said:

GoingMad24 said:

I do not know what the bank are doing- I can't speak directly to the cards dispute team and the advisors don't really know anything. The person spoke to yesterday seemed to be suggesting they would have to raise a Chargeback first before they could go to the credit card company....?

All of this is something I have zero experience of hence why I've turned up here looking for advice. 

Thank you for your help

Until dispute team look at the case. Then they will have a better idea. Front line staff have no idea on dispute/S75 process. It is not a simple process. As it relates to card regulations.
There would be no chargeback as car was not faulty when received, nor does it cover what you perceive what is a excessive charge for the 6K miles you did.

S75 you have to prove that the retailer has breach of contract &/or misrepresentation. Given they has taken car back, then they have done all that is required of them.

Many take the charge per mile the same as Gov do @45p per mile. Which would be £2700. Again this would not really be something S75 would look at. As there is no fixed amount. It would be down to you to discuss with retailer what you feel would be a fair deduction.
 

I knew it was a long shot with S75 but thought it was worth a try....🤷‍♀️ CRA 2015 talks about a reasonable deduction and I suppose everyones definition of reasonable is really dependent on their personal circumstances. In my case I can definitely say I believe £4000 deduction for a car that had issues within 6weeks of purchase is extremely poor. It's just a pity there isn't a fair definition of what reasonable looks like....🤷‍♀️ 

GoingMad24

Grumpy_chap said:

MattMattMattUK said:

6,000 miles at 45p per mile would normally be reasonable, so £2,700. 

born_again said:

Many take the charge per mile the same as Gov do @45p per mile. Which would be £2700. 
 

I am not sure that the £0.45 per mile is fair or reasonable.
That amount permitted by HMRC for business mileage is to cover all the costs of running the car:
 - depreciation
 - maintenance
 - insurance
 - break down policy
 - VED
 - petrol

The Dealer has not incurred all these costs.

I don't have any breakdown of how they arrived at the figure but I do know the Consumer Rights advised that I shouldn't be held responsible for any costs incurred other than the mileage.  ( such as the cost of fixing the issuestill to get the car ready for resale.) 

This is a really expensive lesson, I'm just so annoyed with myself. 

Consumer rights also suggested the small claims court to recoup the money but not entirely sure how that would go plus I'd have to pay the court fees.....

Gandalf644

Grumpy_chap said:

I am not sure that the £0.45 per mile is fair or reasonable.
That amount permitted by HMRC for business mileage is to cover all the costs of running the car:
 - depreciation
 - maintenance
 - insurance
 - break down policy
 - VED
 - petrol

The Dealer has not incurred all these costs.

If you  trawl through the many decisions given by the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) in disputed cases over the amount charged for mileage etc on returned/rejected vehicles, generally the FOS accept 45p per mile as a reasonable amount:

FOS Decisions:

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decisions-case-studies/ombudsman-decisions

GoingMad24

So using 45p it should have been £2700 not the £4000 they deducted.....🤷‍♀️

Grumpy_chap

Gandalf644 said:

If you  trawl through the many decisions given by the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) in disputed cases over the amount charged for mileage etc on returned/rejected vehicles, generally the FOS accept 45p per mile as a reasonable amount:

FOS Decisions:

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decisions-case-studies/ombudsman-decisions

Thank you.

FWIW, I think the FOS are incorrect.  However, what I think is not important.

Lucky_Duck_2

Grumpy_chap said:

Gandalf644 said:

If you  trawl through the many decisions given by the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) in disputed cases over the amount charged for mileage etc on returned/rejected vehicles, generally the FOS accept 45p per mile as a reasonable amount:

FOS Decisions:

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decisions-case-studies/ombudsman-decisions

Thank you.

FWIW, I think the FOS are incorrect.  However, what I think is not important.

Indeed, unless the FOS thinks said vehicles came with a fuel card…

Excess mileage charges on PCP  type agreements tend to be half that amount or less and which are intended as a genuine pre estimate of depreciation cost.