Party Wall Agreement - unsure!

IvyFlood

Hoping for some advice as you're all so knowledgeable and helpful!

We live in a semi and our neighbours are building a two-story extension.

They approached us last week saying they needed to discuss it with us and presented us with a party wall agreement. They need to install a concrete padstone on their boundary wall which will support a steel ridge beam required for the roof of their extension.

So it won't affect us directly (I don't think?) but this is the first time I've ever dealt with anything like this so I'm a bit unsure, what are my rights (if any) if we sign it? I'm aware that if we don't sign it, it goes into dispute and from what I've read we could end up paying for a surveyor.

Just feel as though it's all in their favour whether we sign it or not and don't really see why we need to be involved because as far as I'm concerned our only opportunity to intervene was when we got the plans through the door about 3 years ago now. 

ThisIsWeird

What is it they presented you with - a form to say you are 'ok' with the work going ahead? Did they also suggest you could engage a PWA surveyor if you felt it was needed - and that they'd have to pay for it?

It really comes down to things like - just how intrusive will the work be on your property. How trustworthy are your neighbs - is it all above board, PP confirmed, Building Control at the LA engaged, and a reputable builder with indemnity insurance?

They have shown you the plans? Have you checked the Planning Portal at your LA (on line) to see they are doing all the right things as mentioned above? Has your neighbour engaged with you on this in a manner you'd have expected and hoped for, or have they kept quietish and only made contact when they 'needed' to?

If you insist on a PWA surveyor, it'll cost them around £1k or so, and the surveyor should be able to set your mind at ease should things start to happen that you are not happy about - encroachment over your boundary, wanting to knock an unexpected hole through your wall, rainwater goods being designed to increase flow over your side - that sort of stuff. But, you can tackle any such transgression yourself - especially if you have Legal Protection included in your home insurance. Do you?

You should, in any case, contact your insurance company to advise them of this work - it shouldn't affect you at all, but they might want reassurances on such things as I mentioned earlier.

So, should you sign, or should you engage a PWA surveyor at their cost? I don't know. If the work is significantly intrusive on your property, then perhaps yes. If you have doubts about your neighbour's calibre, or that of the builder, then yes. If they have failed to go through the full correct process at Building Control and Planning - then def yes - and inform BC...

If the effect on you should be minimal, and all else appears fully above board, and you have solid LegProt, then consider not insisting on a PWAS. If a surveyor is not really needed, then it would be a nice gesture to save them the money on it, and demonstrate your trust in them. Perhaps get back to them and explain your, 'not sure whether I need to engage a PWAS or not. Could you reassure me on these points, please...?"

Others on here may have a different opinion on this.

IvyFlood

@ThisIsWeird thank you for your response - very informative.

Yes its just a form form that details what they plan to do and for us to give our consent or not. But it seems even if we don't sign it, we can't stop them? 

They have given us a plan of the roof and he did reiterate it won't touch our property at all. 

I don't know who the builder is but I will ask. I know they have had real problems getting the trades to do it and I think the drainage was all done wrong and needed redoing as per the council. The bloke has been doing a lot of the work himself, he certainly hired a digger to dig the foundations.

They did say they want everything to be legal and above board which is why they have approached us with the agreement.

I wouldn't have even thought about informing our insurance, this is what makes me feel really uncomfortable about the whole thing - why should we get drawn into it!

I like to think I trust them. I have met up with the girl a few times while I was on maternity as our babies are 3 months apart and go to the same nursery.

The last thing I would want to do is cause them more hassle as I know they've had issues getting it off the ground but I just hate that we're involved and have to consent or not consent.

On a side note, we've started to have a problem with mice! Could be a coincidence but I think its to do with all the upheaval and disturbance as we've never had them since they dug up their garden for the extension. We asked them about it and they said they hadn't had any but the pest control man seems to think they wouldn't admit to it and when I asked, he said 'I think they're just everywhere' and looking back now it seems like a bit of a cover up response which doesn't sit right with me!

ThisIsWeird

IvyFlood said:

@ThisIsWeird thank you for your response - very informative.
Yes its just a form form that details what they plan to do and for us to give our consent or not. But it seems even if we don't sign it, we can't stop them?
They have given us a plan of the roof and he did reiterate it won't touch our property at all.
I don't know who the builder is but I will ask. I know they have had real problems getting the trades to do it and I think the drainage was all done wrong and needed redoing as per the council. The bloke has been doing a lot of the work himself, he certainly hired a digger to dig the foundations.
They did say they want everything to be legal and above board which is why they have approached us with the agreement.
I wouldn't have even thought about informing our insurance, this is what makes me feel really uncomfortable about the whole thing - why should we get drawn into it!
I like to think I trust them. I have met up with the girl a few times while I was on maternity as our babies are 3 months apart and go to the same nursery.
The last thing I would want to do is cause them more hassle as I know they've had issues getting it off the ground but I just hate that we're involved and have to consent or not consent.
On a side note, we've started to have a problem with mice! Could be a coincidence but I think its to do with all the upheaval and disturbance as we've never had them since they dug up their garden for the extension. We asked them about it and they said they hadn't had any but the pest control man seems to think they wouldn't admit to it and when I asked, he said 'I think they're just everywhere' and looking back now it seems like a bit of a cover up response which doesn't sit right with me!

Why would you want to stop them? Aren't they entitled to add to their home, provided they follow all the correct permissions and guidelines? As you are to yours?

I am not certain that you are obliged to contact your insurance - but they should certainly be informing theirs! Insurance companies obviously have an interest in the property they are protecting, so if you had any such work planned, they'd want to know - and you could be in bother if things went wrong and you hadn't told them. So, I'm just 'suggesting' you 'chat' or call them and ask - explain it shouldn't affect your house, and they have lodged all the plans with BuildControl, etc. They'll either say 'thanks for letting us know', or they may ask some more Qs. They might even ask if you have a PWAS, I don't know. It's just a cover-yourself exercise. Not a biggie, and hardly a reason to feel aggrieved about your neighbour's work.

Do you have LegProt? If you do, and if things start to go wrong, then they should guide you on how to respond - including how to get a court order to cease work in an emergency! But that is extremely unlikely to be required. Almost certainly, all will be well.

 

FreeBear

IvyFlood said: On a side note, we've started to have a problem with mice! Could be a coincidence but I think its to do with all the upheaval and disturbance as we've never had them since they dug up their garden for the extension. We asked them about it and they said they hadn't had any but the pest control man seems to think they wouldn't admit to it and when I asked, he said 'I think they're just everywhere' and looking back now it seems like a bit of a cover up response which doesn't sit right with me!

Rodents are everywhere and are attracted by food.

Used to have an occasional problem with mice indoors here, but after plugging access points and changing the way food was stored, they've gone elsewhere. Also have rats running around outside as evidenced by the cat bringing the occasional one in (fortunately dead).

millie

We had our own party wall agreement when our neighbours were doing their extension. They did bring theirs round but we had already had several problems with them trying to do things we were not happy with. He did start to attach planks to our fence to make his own fence and was surprised and not happy when we asked him to remove them. there were a few other issues too so we decided that if things were not done correctly it would be easier to get someone else to communicate with him.

TheGreenFrog

IvyFlood said:

Hoping for some advice as you're all so knowledgeable and helpful!

We live in a semi and our neighbours are building a two-story extension.

They approached us last week saying they needed to discuss it with us and presented us with a party wall agreement. They need to install a concrete padstone on their boundary wall which will support a steel ridge beam required for the roof of their extension.

So it won't affect us directly (I don't think?) but this is the first time I've ever dealt with anything like this so I'm a bit unsure, what are my rights (if any) if we sign it? I'm aware that if we don't sign it, it goes into dispute and from what I've read we could end up paying for a surveyor.

Just feel as though it's all in their favour whether we sign it or not and don't really see why we need to be involved because as far as I'm concerned our only opportunity to intervene was when we got the plans through the door about 3 years ago now. 

Do you know why they think the Party Wall Act applies?  Does the boundary wall you refer to divide your respective buildings?  If they are proposing to do structural work involving such a wall I would be inclined to insist on a surveyor at their cost.  The Act could also apply because they are proposing excavations close to your house, and again I would be inclined to insist on surveyor.  One of my daughters had neighbour request consent for attic conversion, requiring beam attached to party wall.  She insisted on surveyor and neighbour was fine with it as the surveyor provided him with comfort that the builder was doing a proper job as well.

IvyFlood

@TheGreenFrog your daughters situation sounds similar to ours. My understanding from what next door said is that we have our brickwork then a cavity then their brickwork and the concrete padstone will sit in their brickwork. But I am not 100% sure! As it happens we just had our loft boarded so I was up there having a look at the wall and it all looks pretty 'thin' should we say!

I asked them for details of the builder and also an insurance certificate which expires end of May 25. I have then proceeded to social media stalk the builder to see if I can get a vibe and he's put a number of posts up saying how much he hates structural engineers!

Could they refuse to appoint a structural engineer if they don't want that cost? And if they did would they not just act in their favour given they are the ones paying? I'd feel bad in a way and don't know if I'm making a mountain out of a molehill in what they want to do but I just feel very uncomfortable with it all.

millie

I was told by our Party wall surveyor that if the neighbour was putting beams in to strength the loft for use as a room that they would need a party wall surveyor for that as well as their extension.

TheGreenFrog

IvyFlood said:

@TheGreenFrog your daughters situation sounds similar to ours. My understanding from what next door said is that we have our brickwork then a cavity then their brickwork and the concrete padstone will sit in their brickwork. But I am not 100% sure! As it happens we just had our loft boarded so I was up there having a look at the wall and it all looks pretty 'thin' should we say!

I asked them for details of the builder and also an insurance certificate which expires end of May 25. I have then proceeded to social media stalk the builder to see if I can get a vibe and he's put a number of posts up saying how much he hates structural engineers!

Could they refuse to appoint a structural engineer if they don't want that cost? And if they did would they not just act in their favour given they are the ones paying? I'd feel bad in a way and don't know if I'm making a mountain out of a molehill in what they want to do but I just feel very uncomfortable with it all.

They can’t refuse, assuming they want to comply with the Party Wall Act.  You appoint an agreed surveyor who acts independently but they pay.  There is further info at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet