spouse benefits on an annuity

Frustratedexecutor

I am sole executor for my father-in-law's will. I'm having real angst with two insurers on the matter of spouse benefits - in both cases 100% - and the payments were going into a joint account. Both have stopped paying my mother -in-law - both have done so without writing first. Both are demanding original birth and marriage certificates, the original death certificate, a completed annuity form, a completed client identification form, and details of the account into which payment should be made - one demanding a new mandate. One says they need to set up a new annuity, neither have written and confirmed what the spouse benefits are (but I have established both are 100%) - both say there is no documentation from inception (which I assume will have required the documents to set up in the first place), neither will provide the original contract. 

My MIL is a vulnerable person, she doesn't live nearby, and getting the documents certified will be expensive. Both have been advised she is a vulnerable customer. Both say there standard practice is to stop payment pending resolution of paperwork and their extended servicing times. Is it really OK not to pay benefits to a vulnerable old lady in Winter?

One refused to speak to me, demanding i produce a power of attorney (not written authority) in order to disclose her entitlement. 

One wrote demanding repayment of sums paid between death and ceasing payment, without offering to offset vs monies due, indeed not even indicating there was a spouse benefit in the letter. 

Both companies say they do not track external databases such as the death notification service, tell us once website, the Gazette, or probate filings. 

Now aside from the calls for original not certified copies, neither suggest a passport as needed or as a substitute. 

One has provided figures that don't add up, and a statement of reduced payments when the spouse benefit is 100%. 

Are they allowed to behave this way, are the demands for documentation, surely all provided at inception, reasonable? Can they suspend payment to her without writing to her to inform her? 

p00hsticks

Frustratedexecutor said:

Both companies say they do not track external databases such as the death notification service, tell us once website, the Gazette, or probate filings. 

I appreciate your frustration, but the Tell Us Once service is only for government departments, and it usually takes months for probate and death certification records to become available, so those avenues are not really appropriate .

 In my experience it is quite usual and understandable for companies to want to see both a death certificate for the deceased and proof that the person they are dealing with is executor of the deceased estate and/or has PoA to act on behalf of the survivor.

dunstonh

 Both have stopped paying my mother -in-law - both have done so without writing first. 

It is expected that there would be a break because the annuity can no longer go through the payroll system payable to your father-in-law.  It needs to be paid to your mother-in-law.  That means under her NI number and her bank details.   You would expect written notification and requests for details.

Both are demanding original birth and marriage certificates, the original death certificate, a completed annuity form, a completed client identification form, and details of the account into which payment should be made - one demanding a new mandate. 

All those things are logical requests apart from "demanding a new mandate".  I assume you mean direct debit mandate   Unless there are contributions to be made, that would not be a logical request.   However, if their form is multi-purpose, the inclusion on the form would not be unexpected (many retired people pay £3600 back into pensions).  Although a multi-purpose form giving the ability to complete a section is not the same as a demand that it is completed.   

One says they need to set up a new annuity, neither have written and confirmed what the spouse benefits are (but I have established both are 100%) - both say there is no documentation from inception (which I assume will have required the documents to set up in the first place), neither will provide the original contract. 

Typically, limited information is provided to the annuity provider at the outset.   The intermediary/retailer has the bulk of the information and only sends on a relatively short application form to the provider.    Ther is no contract to provide.  It would have been a copy of the accepted quote or a policy document depending on when it was set up. 

In many cases, the current annuity provider is different to the one that it was set up with at the outside.  Annuity books have changed hands a lot in recent years. 

My MIL is a vulnerable person, she doesn't live nearby, and getting the documents certified will be expensive. Both have been advised she is a vulnerable customer. Both say there standard practice is to stop payment pending resolution of paperwork and their extended servicing times. Is it really OK not to pay benefits to a vulnerable old lady in Winter?

Getting the information to the insurer should be relatively easy, and they typically deal with it quickly. Usually, there is little or no gap unless the widow takes their time to respond.

One refused to speak to me, demanding i produce a power of attorney (not written authority) in order to disclose her entitlement. 

They are correct in doing so.  They need to know you have the legal right to act on behalf of your MIL.    The fact you say she is vulnerable would actually put them more on guard of manipulation by family members or friends attempting to find out things for their own financial benefit.   From your board name, it suggests you are the executor but that doesn't apply to pensions/annuities as they are not part of the estate.

Both companies say they do not track external databases such as the death notification service, tell us once website, the Gazette, or probate filings. 

Which is understandable.  That would be an unnecessary cost.

One wrote demanding repayment of sums paid between death and ceasing payment, without offering to offset vs monies due, indeed not even indicating there was a spouse benefit in the letter. 

The repayment of the sum can be made from the estate and is easier than getting a beneficiary/spouse to pay it.  It can also be more tax efficient by reducing the value of the estate.

Are they allowed to behave this way, are the demands for documentation, surely all provided at inception, reasonable? Can they suspend payment to her without writing to her to inform her? 

Nothing you have said really sounds like they are being unreasonable.  
Your assumption that they were provided documents at inception is just your assumption.   In-house annuities barely obtained information and open market annuities would depend on when they were set up.   I  did an L&G annuity using OMO last week and there were no signatures, no certificates or ID provided or anything like it.    However, I recall annuities set up 30 years ago where we would ask for birth cert.  The marriage cert was hit and miss, though.

Keep_pedalling

As these pensions fall out of his estate your role of executor does not extend to his pensions, for that you need power of attorney. Has she put a financial LPA a in place? 

Brie

Keep_pedalling said:

As these pensions fall out of his estate your role of executor does not extend to his pensions, for that you need power of attorney. Has she put a financial LPA a in place? 

Why a POA?  Why not a letter of authority to deal with them on her behalf??  

Obviously a POA is better but given the amount of time it would take to put in place there should be a better, more sensible way to deal with things in the short term.

molerat

Brie said:

Keep_pedalling said:

As these pensions fall out of his estate your role of executor does not extend to his pensions, for that you need power of attorney. Has she put a financial LPA a in place? 

Why a POA?  Why not a letter of authority to deal with them on her behalf??  

Obviously a POA is better but given the amount of time it would take to put in place there should be a better, more sensible way to deal with things in the short term.

A letter of authority from someone they do not have on record ?  A POA is a legal document which can be traced, validated and cross referenced, not just written by a mate down the pub.

Marcon

Frustratedexecutor said:

One says they need to set up a new annuity, neither have written and confirmed what the spouse benefits are (but I have established both are 100%) - both say there is no documentation from inception (which I assume will have required the documents to set up in the first place), neither will provide the original contract. 



One has provided figures that don't add up, and a statement of reduced payments when the spouse benefit is 100%. 

How did you establish this? 100% spouse benefit for the spouse's lifetime is quite unusual. Are you sure it wasn't just some sort of guarantee period, so that 100% is paid for a particular number of years after your FIL died?

35har1old

Marcon said:

Frustratedexecutor said:

One says they need to set up a new annuity, neither have written and confirmed what the spouse benefits are (but I have established both are 100%) - both say there is no documentation from inception (which I assume will have required the documents to set up in the first place), neither will provide the original contract. 



One has provided figures that don't add up, and a statement of reduced payments when the spouse benefit is 100%. 

How did you establish this? 100% spouse benefit for the spouse's lifetime is quite unusual. Are you sure it wasn't just some sort of guarantee period, so that 100% is paid for a particular number of years after your FIL died?

It is possible to have 100% but it may be 100% of the original sum if it was a pension that increased yearly 

Marcon

35har1old said:

Marcon said:

Frustratedexecutor said:

One says they need to set up a new annuity, neither have written and confirmed what the spouse benefits are (but I have established both are 100%) - both say there is no documentation from inception (which I assume will have required the documents to set up in the first place), neither will provide the original contract. 



One has provided figures that don't add up, and a statement of reduced payments when the spouse benefit is 100%. 

How did you establish this? 100% spouse benefit for the spouse's lifetime is quite unusual. Are you sure it wasn't just some sort of guarantee period, so that 100% is paid for a particular number of years after your FIL died?

It is possible to have 100% but it may be 100% of the original sum if it was a pension that increased yearly 

Possible but - as my post said - quite unusual. The chances of the spouse pension being exactly 100% of the original pension 'because it increased yearly' is even more unusual!

dunstonh

Marcon said:

35har1old said:

Marcon said:

Frustratedexecutor said:

One says they need to set up a new annuity, neither have written and confirmed what the spouse benefits are (but I have established both are 100%) - both say there is no documentation from inception (which I assume will have required the documents to set up in the first place), neither will provide the original contract. 



One has provided figures that don't add up, and a statement of reduced payments when the spouse benefit is 100%. 

How did you establish this? 100% spouse benefit for the spouse's lifetime is quite unusual. Are you sure it wasn't just some sort of guarantee period, so that 100% is paid for a particular number of years after your FIL died?

It is possible to have 100% but it may be 100% of the original sum if it was a pension that increased yearly 

Possible but - as my post said - quite unusual. The chances of the spouse pension being exactly 100% of the original pension 'because it increased yearly' is even more unusual!

Correct.  100% spouse would carry on from where it is.  Not revert back to the original.

Frustratedexecutor

Thanks, all useful. The husband had 9 annuities, ranging from Clerical Medical, Aviva, Canada Life - all were excellent, clear precise information, requested death certificate, all provided precise information promptly, all sorted with minimum effort. None stated i needed an LPA to know the benefits under the policy when i am executor to the policyholder. I do want to be able to tell the widow so she can budget. 

The policy in question is c£30 per month, and slipped under my radar, there was no paperwork in the files. So hands up, I missed it at the time. A second policy has been located subsequently. We aren’t talking large sums, there is an issue of proportionality. 

I have sent a scan copy of the death certificate for information purposes only to try and be helpful/speed things up - and been admonished for this being illegal - practice here varies, some ask for the original, others are happy to accept / or actually request a scan (yes I know, Crown Copyright etc - but I’m guessing most photo copy the form when it comes in for their files…). I have offered to post but i do need to know where to post it. Now its a complaint, it should go the named handler, but the named handler seems different on every correspondence, and the one that gave a phone number gave an incorrect phone number. They have said they have confirmed death by another source so don’t need it, but correspondence is conflicting. 

The old lady won’t let me post her marriage certificate or birth certificate in case they get lost (and I’m not sure she knows where it is..). A certified copy of her passport surely serves the purpose, its proof of name and date of birth. Odds of a Second Lady with same name, same DoB, same address not being the spouse must be essentially infinite to 1. But no response to this offer.

The bank account is the same, it was joint, we aren’t talking the risk of some random person re-directing money as a scam. I sent the payment form without her signature while i was waiting for my next visit to her - I don’t live nearby - and was told this sufficed - and i have it signed now and have offered to send if they say who to - but i have no response to this. The form does say it only needs completing if it’s a change (which it isn’t) - verbally they accept having it and don’t need the signed copy. 

I have sent them her NI number, but they haven’t responded. 

They say they have written to the widow, (more than 3 weeks ago now) but she insists she has not received any letters. 

Seems someone now being deliberately unhelpful.