Lack of LPA

otb666

My elderly relative point blank refuses to do LPA. He has had a couple of incidences recently involving delusions but they are adamant. He has set his children up us extors in his will But does not want LPAs. So if the children of FIL have to arrange a Deputy (in the future) I have been reading online and its £408 plus annually £320. This does not seem that bad to me. Or am I missing something.  Its a weird one as allows children to help him with his financial affairs as long as he is present. He is certainly not going to change his mind about LPA as his delusions have made him less trust worthy of his children now anyway. I would be grateful of any advise you have. Thank you Property 250k savings 100k. 

Keep_pedalling

If he looses mental capacity the with no LPA in place then someone will meet to apply for deputyship, the cost is not the main issue but the length of time it take to obtain.

Pollycat

If he point-blank refuses to consider setting up LPAs then it really doesn't matter how expensive or how lengthy the alternative costs/takes.
It is as it is.

But Keep-pedalling is correct. It does take time to get it arranged.
But that burden will fall on his family, not him.

elsien

Also not sure what you mean about the deputyship being used when his children are presence. Deputyship is effectively an LPA for someone who didn’t make one before they lost capacity. 

The guidance that applies to power  of attorney – involving the person as much as possible, making their own decisions where they still can (If they have capacity around smaller decisions, but not large financial  ones), acting in their best interests.
the primary difference is the length of time that it takes. There was an 18 month delay with the court protection which can cause problems because no one can do anything in the meantime. 

He’s probably scared that people are going to step in and take over his finances so maybe a reassurance that he still making his own decisions while he’s able to could help? 

otb666

Thanks I am only the messenger really as its my husbands family. The thing is he needs a lot more assistance with his online bank as house bound and obviously we are helping him a lot with that. This is fine but at some point because of incidences we will have to sort nursing home or at home care either he will hate but as his mind deteriorates he  has confused and good days. Would the LPA stop him using an online account?
He gets about 2k going in and he uses 1k per month He wont even let us sort out hearing aid or opticians, at his house, as adamant all good when clearly is not.
He has had a couple of hospital admissions and does the performance of his life to get discharges at home. Its really a worry now and we do worry we have to overstep the mark with helping him with his money affairs without LPA .
Tbh we have no witnesses or certificate provider as he does not talk to anyone but us over last 3 years. So even if he agrees we would have to get solicitor to arrange. I am trying to gather information the above replies are helpful. Is there anyone with any tips please who has been in this situation?
Its all such a worry and effecting my husband and all very stressful.

elsien

It depends how the LPA is set up. It can  be set up so that it can be used while he still has capacity or only when he loses capacity. Many people set them up for when the have capacity for circumstances such as you describe, where they are stuck in and physically not able to access services.
The LPA would need to carefully consider his understanding for each decision and if his illness progresses because when he does lose capacity around managing his finances then they would have to step in to prevent the online access in his best interests. 
If you have a third party bank mandate then that is only effective while he has capacity and must not be used if there are any concerns about his ability to monitor his account - the bank would step in if they became aware of this. 

It is really hard when people don't acknowledge their changing needs and sadly it does take someone getting themselves into a financial mess before any actions can really be taken.
If he doesn't trust family would he agree to a solicitor instead? It will cost him more and is not ideal but is another alternative. I'm guessing probably not but it may be worth running past him. But don't forget he needs to have capacity to complete an LPA as well which may fluctuate between good and bad days. I do think you are correct to involve a solicitor in drawing up the LPA because any certificate provider needs to be much more careful so that the LPA is not open to challenge further down the line. 
If it does come to the point where a deputyship is needed and there are long delays someone can apply to the DWP to be his appointee for his state pension and any other benefits that he is getting such as attendance allowance. it still takes a couple of months but is a lot quicker than deputyship  as it can be paid into an account set up by the appointee rather than going into his own bank, it does ensure he has access to some money in the meantime if no-one can legally access his accounts. 

If you have any safeguarding concerns about his ability to manage at home then contact the local authority for advice. 

otb666

He is very good at looking after his needs Does his own washing and cooking and very self sufficient. We have had a couple of crazy incidences where he seemed to have lost logic but we now avoid talking about them and move onto another subject. All his utilities are set up by direct debit. He does not want anyone to have power over his money and I guess when he does end up in home we will have to deal with it then. The information provided is very useful. He is very good with his money in some ways and knows exactly whats what. He is totally reliant on the online banking and we would hate to lose that if we did get a LTA. I believe some banks do not allow online once LTA is set up is that right? The only reason we would want an LTA is for any future sale of his house needed for care costs.  He is very capable is some ways we are just worried about future as goes from capable to muddled very quickly. Hope this makes sense. Thank you

elsien

You will need an LPA or deputyship if he is no longer able to manage his own money even if he continues to live at home because of setting up new contracts (insurance, care agency, changing utility providers etc) or if direct debits and standing orders need to be amended or cancelled. Completing an local authority financial assessment and arranging payment if he is not going to be fully self-funding.  And simply giving you authority to speak to people on his behalf. 
There are  many people who are still well able to live at home with or without support who still need someone to deal with the money side of things. Don't make the mistake of  thinking it would only relevant if he moves into care. Many families slide under the bank's radar with continuing to use the third party bank mandate or a joint account long after they should. The bank could freeze the account if they become aware the person can't manage things themselves and also there are potential safeguardings. His family need to be absolutely scrupulous about recording because if he is suspicious he could start to make allegations. 

otb666

He keep a record via amazon account on all his purchases and his shopping is done online the same as his utilities there is nothing else that comes out. When it comes to money he is quite astute. I have passed your comments on to hubby and we will just have to see how it goes and bring LTA up when he is in a happier place.

Heliocentric

Go easy on him. I know it's frustrating but it causes people to have fears that relatives are trying to take money etc. 

You will need to get a deputyship for financial affairs IF he has lost capacity. I got one for my father. The doctor has to verify that he has lost capacity, though. My dad had alzheimer's. Took a while to get a diagnosis but I'm not sure how unwell your relative is.

The fees aren't bad no, especially as you'll be using his money for it and not your own.

It took us a year to get it (it's more to do with the OPG/COP having lots to get through - your application is one of many they have to deal with). You then give that to the bank and the bank will give you your own card so you can access his account.

The main issue is having to itemise everything you spend your relatives' money on. It's fine if they don't have many needs but if you have to buy a lot for them, you need to keep all receipts for a year (from date of acceptance to the same date the following year) and you need to keep a log of each item for when you fill out the online form e.g.

toilet paper £9.99
biscuits 39p
trip to zoo £20.00

For a year, so it adds up. If I were you, I would start doing that from day 1 when you start using his money to buy things for him. I didn't and I spent 2 whole days doing this and forgot to eat to the point where I had to go to hospital because I was shaking. That's my own fault but I advise you to start

Bonus is that you only have to do this the first time round. The following years you only fill out a short version of the form and it's not itemised. Still keep the receipts, though and 

Just for perspective, when you have an LPA, you don't have to do any of this. Nobody is monitoring your use of his money because he has told solicitors that he trust you with his money. This is only because he hasn't appointed you, so you need to earn the trust of the court and opg.

Also make sure you have a bank account just for him and his money, otherwise it's very hard to remember what you've spent money on and for whom.

Try to not use your own money for your relative. If you do (which most do if they need to buy things and do not yet have access), you are allowed to pay yourself back. I believe you pay yourself back as an expense but you have to tell the OPG. They will then advise. I had to pay myself back for something for dad and my mum needed to do the same. The OPG advised to do it as two separate transactions. You then declare it on the form.

otb666

@Heliocentric Thank you for replying and all the useful information. He seems a bit better now so may have been a urine infection which always sends him a bit loopy.  I was worried about it all but in the future if he does require a care home feel better equipped as to what to expect. Its so good knowing what the implications of not having a LPA are. On the TV Mr Lewis always bangs on about them but not so much if you cannot get one from elderly relative. I guess the house will just have to sit empty for a year,or more, whilst this is all sorted but as its his choice and money that its up to him and even though it would be a lot easier if he allowed LPA its his choice and nothing we can do about it.