DB Pension PCLS Late may incur losses

Pat38493

DRS1 said:

Does the scheme have some sort of web portal where you may be able to log in and find useful information and documents - including perhaps the IDRP?

No - there is a seb portal but it just allows you to send them questions, which seem to just generate an automated email to them because the replies always just come by email.

DRS1

Sounds like you need to get a contact point for the trustees and ask them - you can explain why you want the IDRP in the letter/email which may of itself prompt some action.

Tommyjw

I may be missing some points and whacking this out on a phone but if it was me 

- ask for IDRP via phone call immediately, lets kick start the process , not the administrators own complaint process, the schemes IDRP. Best case , for you, is they have a "one-stage" IDRP which says complaints via the IDRP go straight to the trustee, it skips the administrators own process (from an administrator point of view when people do this it's annoying as in many cases it's not needed , the trustee doesn't need to be bothered by most complaints). Worst case, they have a "two stage" IDRP where they can nominate someone to review a complaint firstly, sometimes for example a sub-committee of trustees, company representative etc so not quite the "important" trustees but you're not worse off you just won't get to the important people as quick.

https://www.sackers.com/blog/general-code-corner-internal-dispute-resolution-procedure-idrp/

- Request compensation to be paid amounting to the interest owed based on the Bank of England base rate for each day from retirement date to X date it eventually gets paid. I think this is just a generally fair, not taking the micky , middle of the ground rate. You're not saying I could have got 15% investment returns, they aren't saying we owe you £10. It won't be groundbreaking, but at the end of the day people are to be put into the position they would have been i.e. if your lump sum was in a generic bank account, nothing more.

E.g., a 50k lump sum x  4.5% / 365 is a £6 per day amount , you can be more specific if the delay breaches different rates etc

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/boeapps/database/Bank-Rate.asp

- Request additional non-financial compensation of £500. From memory, this is the limit for "significant" distress but not quite "serious". It's a bit subjective, google pensions ombudsman compensation levels for examples. 

- Financial compensation is more difficult. It will be proving if you HAD to do something or you had no choice but to lose money because of this, its quite hard to prove. I've seen examples when I read Ombudsman decisions when they've literally said in nicer wording oh they paid you a lower lump sum than they quoted and you've been expecting it for 12 months and they changed it last minute... you're still young, go back to work. Or, why didn't you cancel the holiday to save money and reduce costs, we arent going to ask them to pay you the loan/credit card costs of continuing the holiday.  

Making financial commitments on a lump sum you expected on a certain date, fairly, but not receiving it rightly or wrongly just isn't often enough . Especially if they do the above, and lay some form of interest on it. So, if you do need to change your finances elsewhere,  I would absolutely mention it and try and get it back, but absolutely make decisions to minimise those costs and expect you'll get nothing.

Pat38493

Thanks Tommyjw that is very helpful.

In the meantime I was also able to locate the contact info of the professional trustees so I can also approach them informally if needed.

Pat38493

Tommyjw said:

I may be missing some points and whacking this out on a phone but if it was me 

- ask for IDRP via phone call immediately, lets kick start the process , not the administrators own complaint process, the schemes IDRP. Best case , for you, is they have a "one-stage" IDRP which says complaints via the IDRP go straight to the trustee, it skips the administrators own process (from an administrator point of view when people do this it's annoying as in many cases it's not needed , the trustee doesn't need to be bothered by most complaints). Worst case, they have a "two stage" IDRP where they can nominate someone to review a complaint firstly, sometimes for example a sub-committee of trustees, company representative etc so not quite the "important" trustees but you're not worse off you just won't get to the important people as quick.

https://www.sackers.com/blog/general-code-corner-internal-dispute-resolution-procedure-idrp/

- Request compensation to be paid amounting to the interest owed based on the Bank of England base rate for each day from retirement date to X date it eventually gets paid. I think this is just a generally fair, not taking the micky , middle of the ground rate. You're not saying I could have got 15% investment returns, they aren't saying we owe you £10. It won't be groundbreaking, but at the end of the day people are to be put into the position they would have been i.e. if your lump sum was in a generic bank account, nothing more.

E.g., a 50k lump sum x  4.5% / 365 is a £6 per day amount , you can be more specific if the delay breaches different rates etc

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/boeapps/database/Bank-Rate.asp

- Request additional non-financial compensation of £500. From memory, this is the limit for "significant" distress but not quite "serious". It's a bit subjective, google pensions ombudsman compensation levels for examples. 

- Financial compensation is more difficult. It will be proving if you HAD to do something or you had no choice but to lose money because of this, its quite hard to prove. I've seen examples when I read Ombudsman decisions when they've literally said in nicer wording oh they paid you a lower lump sum than they quoted and you've been expecting it for 12 months and they changed it last minute... you're still young, go back to work. Or, why didn't you cancel the holiday to save money and reduce costs, we arent going to ask them to pay you the loan/credit card costs of continuing the holiday.  

Making financial commitments on a lump sum you expected on a certain date, fairly, but not receiving it rightly or wrongly just isn't often enough . Especially if they do the above, and lay some form of interest on it. So, if you do need to change your finances elsewhere,  I would absolutely mention it and try and get it back, but absolutely make decisions to minimise those costs and expect you'll get nothing.

I called the administrators and requested the IDRP.

They put me on hold for a good while and then tried to fob me off again with the same explanation.

I told them that members are entitled to a copy of the IDRP on request.

They are telling me that they normally only give out the IDRP when the member states they want to make an official complaint.

I think I have got their attention so I told them to chase it again and I will call back in a few days.  I also told them that according to my understanding, it's not correct that members are only entitled to see the IDRP if they are actively making a complaint.  It should be a simple document provided on request or downloadable.

I am starting to suspect that they don't even have an IDRP (which would be surprising because I would have thought that Aviva would want to be sure that the pension is being run competently before proceeding with a buy in or buy out).

Question - is it already a breach of statutrory duty that they are resistant to providing me with the IDRP?  Is that already grounds to contact the trustees directly, even regardless of my specific complaint about delays?

Tommyjw

Pat38493 said:

Tommyjw said:

I may be missing some points and whacking this out on a phone but if it was me 

- ask for IDRP via phone call immediately, lets kick start the process , not the administrators own complaint process, the schemes IDRP. Best case , for you, is they have a "one-stage" IDRP which says complaints via the IDRP go straight to the trustee, it skips the administrators own process (from an administrator point of view when people do this it's annoying as in many cases it's not needed , the trustee doesn't need to be bothered by most complaints). Worst case, they have a "two stage" IDRP where they can nominate someone to review a complaint firstly, sometimes for example a sub-committee of trustees, company representative etc so not quite the "important" trustees but you're not worse off you just won't get to the important people as quick.

https://www.sackers.com/blog/general-code-corner-internal-dispute-resolution-procedure-idrp/

- Request compensation to be paid amounting to the interest owed based on the Bank of England base rate for each day from retirement date to X date it eventually gets paid. I think this is just a generally fair, not taking the micky , middle of the ground rate. You're not saying I could have got 15% investment returns, they aren't saying we owe you £10. It won't be groundbreaking, but at the end of the day people are to be put into the position they would have been i.e. if your lump sum was in a generic bank account, nothing more.

E.g., a 50k lump sum x  4.5% / 365 is a £6 per day amount , you can be more specific if the delay breaches different rates etc

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/boeapps/database/Bank-Rate.asp

- Request additional non-financial compensation of £500. From memory, this is the limit for "significant" distress but not quite "serious". It's a bit subjective, google pensions ombudsman compensation levels for examples. 

- Financial compensation is more difficult. It will be proving if you HAD to do something or you had no choice but to lose money because of this, its quite hard to prove. I've seen examples when I read Ombudsman decisions when they've literally said in nicer wording oh they paid you a lower lump sum than they quoted and you've been expecting it for 12 months and they changed it last minute... you're still young, go back to work. Or, why didn't you cancel the holiday to save money and reduce costs, we arent going to ask them to pay you the loan/credit card costs of continuing the holiday.  

Making financial commitments on a lump sum you expected on a certain date, fairly, but not receiving it rightly or wrongly just isn't often enough . Especially if they do the above, and lay some form of interest on it. So, if you do need to change your finances elsewhere,  I would absolutely mention it and try and get it back, but absolutely make decisions to minimise those costs and expect you'll get nothing.

I called the administrators and requested the IDRP.

They put me on hold for a good while and then tried to fob me off again with the same explanation.

I told them that members are entitled to a copy of the IDRP on request.

They are telling me that they normally only give out the IDRP when the member states they want to make an official complaint.

I think I have got their attention so I told them to chase it again and I will call back in a few days.  I also told them that according to my understanding, it's not correct that members are only entitled to see the IDRP if they are actively making a complaint.  It should be a simple document provided on request or downloadable.

I am starting to suspect that they don't even have an IDRP (which would be surprising because I would have thought that Aviva would want to be sure that the pension is being run competently before proceeding with a buy in or buy out).

Question - is it already a breach of statutrory duty that they are resistant to providing me with the IDRP?  Is that already grounds to contact the trustees directly, even regardless of my specific complaint about delays?

"You can only see it if you  complain" is a pretty wild push back because surely then you just say.. okay i'm complaining? .. like now what?  Anything else?.  You can copy wording from here if want to be specific
https://www.pensions-ombudsman.org.uk/sites/default/files/publication/files/Complaining to the parties at fault factsheet_1.pdf

Not sure if i should link to a page that downloads a PDF and not sure how to avoid it so if you google "Pensions law - Tutorial 4: Internal dispute resolution procedure" and a education.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk site, for info such as:

• Trustees are legally obliged to have a formal written procedure for dealing with members complaints.
• Trustees must make it available to any member who requests it.

I'm not aware of, and havent had any luck finding, specific timeframe requirements to provide the IDRP. But the above Ombudsman link says they will look at cases if 8 weeks have gone by and they havent responded to a complaint, so i suppose that is atleast a very end limit. 

If you have the ability to contact Trustee/s directly, i'd certainly do so in this instance. If a admin company, even one that performed poorly in some way hence wanting to complain against them, actually engaged with the complaint i'd suggest to avoid that for now and let them try to fix their own problem if they seem willing. In cases maybe give it those couple of days and after that do it that way. The moment a Trustee contacts you about an individual member who has contacted they (if they are a good trustee anyway)  then don't let it go until they know it's resolved.

Pat38493

Tommyjw said:

Pat38493 said:

Tommyjw said:

I may be missing some points and whacking this out on a phone but if it was me 

- ask for IDRP via phone call immediately, lets kick start the process , not the administrators own complaint process, the schemes IDRP. Best case , for you, is they have a "one-stage" IDRP which says complaints via the IDRP go straight to the trustee, it skips the administrators own process (from an administrator point of view when people do this it's annoying as in many cases it's not needed , the trustee doesn't need to be bothered by most complaints). Worst case, they have a "two stage" IDRP where they can nominate someone to review a complaint firstly, sometimes for example a sub-committee of trustees, company representative etc so not quite the "important" trustees but you're not worse off you just won't get to the important people as quick.

https://www.sackers.com/blog/general-code-corner-internal-dispute-resolution-procedure-idrp/

- Request compensation to be paid amounting to the interest owed based on the Bank of England base rate for each day from retirement date to X date it eventually gets paid. I think this is just a generally fair, not taking the micky , middle of the ground rate. You're not saying I could have got 15% investment returns, they aren't saying we owe you £10. It won't be groundbreaking, but at the end of the day people are to be put into the position they would have been i.e. if your lump sum was in a generic bank account, nothing more.

E.g., a 50k lump sum x  4.5% / 365 is a £6 per day amount , you can be more specific if the delay breaches different rates etc

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/boeapps/database/Bank-Rate.asp

- Request additional non-financial compensation of £500. From memory, this is the limit for "significant" distress but not quite "serious". It's a bit subjective, google pensions ombudsman compensation levels for examples. 

- Financial compensation is more difficult. It will be proving if you HAD to do something or you had no choice but to lose money because of this, its quite hard to prove. I've seen examples when I read Ombudsman decisions when they've literally said in nicer wording oh they paid you a lower lump sum than they quoted and you've been expecting it for 12 months and they changed it last minute... you're still young, go back to work. Or, why didn't you cancel the holiday to save money and reduce costs, we arent going to ask them to pay you the loan/credit card costs of continuing the holiday.  

Making financial commitments on a lump sum you expected on a certain date, fairly, but not receiving it rightly or wrongly just isn't often enough . Especially if they do the above, and lay some form of interest on it. So, if you do need to change your finances elsewhere,  I would absolutely mention it and try and get it back, but absolutely make decisions to minimise those costs and expect you'll get nothing.

I called the administrators and requested the IDRP.

They put me on hold for a good while and then tried to fob me off again with the same explanation.

I told them that members are entitled to a copy of the IDRP on request.

They are telling me that they normally only give out the IDRP when the member states they want to make an official complaint.

I think I have got their attention so I told them to chase it again and I will call back in a few days.  I also told them that according to my understanding, it's not correct that members are only entitled to see the IDRP if they are actively making a complaint.  It should be a simple document provided on request or downloadable.

I am starting to suspect that they don't even have an IDRP (which would be surprising because I would have thought that Aviva would want to be sure that the pension is being run competently before proceeding with a buy in or buy out).

Question - is it already a breach of statutrory duty that they are resistant to providing me with the IDRP?  Is that already grounds to contact the trustees directly, even regardless of my specific complaint about delays?

"You can only see it if you  complain" is a pretty wild push back because surely then you just say.. okay i'm complaining? .. like now what?  Anything else?.  You can copy wording from here if want to be specific
https://www.pensions-ombudsman.org.uk/sites/default/files/publication/files/Complaining to the parties at fault factsheet_1.pdf

Not sure if i should link to a page that downloads a PDF and not sure how to avoid it so if you google "Pensions law - Tutorial 4: Internal dispute resolution procedure" and a education.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk site, for info such as:

• Trustees are legally obliged to have a formal written procedure for dealing with members complaints.
• Trustees must make it available to any member who requests it.

I'm not aware of, and havent had any luck finding, specific timeframe requirements to provide the IDRP. But the above Ombudsman link says they will look at cases if 8 weeks have gone by and they havent responded to a complaint, so i suppose that is atleast a very end limit. 

If you have the ability to contact Trustee/s directly, i'd certainly do so in this instance. If a admin company, even one that performed poorly in some way hence wanting to complain against them, actually engaged with the complaint i'd suggest to avoid that for now and let them try to fix their own problem if they seem willing. In cases maybe give it those couple of days and after that do it that way. The moment a Trustee contacts you about an individual member who has contacted they (if they are a good trustee anyway)  then don't let it go until they know it's resolved.

Good news - after my call last week, it appears that my PCLS has arrived in my account today and is just slightly higher than the amount expected.

I have not actually received any communication about it so when I get further details, I will see whether to put in a complaint to get paid interest.  Also no communication about the monthly payments so far.

DRS1

That is some progress at last.
As for interest just be aware that you will have to pay tax on interest paid for late payment of the lump sum.  I got a couple of TFLSs last year with a small amount included for late payment and was a bit put out to read in the covering letter that the late payment interest was taxable. 

Pat38493

DRS1 said:

That is some progress at last.
As for interest just be aware that you will have to pay tax on interest paid for late payment of the lump sum.  I got a couple of TFLSs last year with a small amount included for late payment and was a bit put out to read in the covering letter that the late payment interest was taxable. 

I gott he letter now confirming the pension monthly amount  - also very close but slightly higher than the original quote.

They are going to pay the first 3 months in arrears on 1st April - I guess this means I will pay the wrong tax as there won't be any time this tax year to rectify anything but it will have to be fixed next year?  I am already a 40% tax payer in the current tax year.  If I contact them and ask them to put me on a 40% tax code right away, will they do it or do they only change the tax code on instructions from HMRC?

DRS1

Yes I guess they will use the emergency code (unless you have given them a P45?).  They will only use tax codes supplied by HMRC.

If you do self assessment that may take care of any extra tax you owe but I suspect you are right that HMRC will probably adjust your tax code to collect underpaid tax - but perhaps not until 26/7?