DB Pension PCLS Late may incur losses

Pat38493

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

My PCLS for my DB pension (and the missing monthly payments) is nearly 2 months late into payment and counting.  The provider claims that they are waiting for buy in funds to be provided by the insurer, but this has been the same update for many weeks.

In about 2 months from now, if it still isn't paid, I will start to incur financial losses depending how I manage the situation.  These could include:
- I might need to take out a loan or run up credit card bills.
- I may be forced to sell investments at a loss depending on market conditions, and take money out of ISA accounts where I will lose the tax wrapper status.
- I might be forced to request my employer whether I can go back to working full time (which they may or may not agree to) as I went part time at the start of this year.

This is in the end a short term situation because we are also in the process of downsizing (sale agreed on both sides), so in about 3 months from now it will not be an issue either way.

I am wondering what is the best way to manage this if I want to make a complaint to the DB provider and ask for recompense for my losses?  For example, the cheapest way for me to fund the short term gap is to take out a personal loan, and then pay back the personal loan as soon as I have the money available.  However, this way it will be hard to demonstrate my exact losses (the interest that was charged during the time the loan was in payment).  Alternatively I can use credit card borrowing which will be much more expensive but it will be easier to demonstrate the exact amount of losses/interest incurred?

'The provider' is still the trustee of your DB scheme at the buy in stage. If you're going to make a formal complaint, then use the scheme's Internal Dispute Resolution Procedure (copy available from the administrators if there isn't a website where you can download it - an IDRP is scheme-specific).

If you've not got a flexible ISA, now might be the moment (although remember that funds withdrawn from it have to returned to it within the same tax year to ensure they keep their ISA status).

DRS1 said:

There has been mention of issues with payments from schemes which have bought in their liabilities on here before (unless that was the OP on another thread).  It may be possible that this is a new set up and the scheme and the insurer need to work out the kinks but there is no excuse for paying late.  They owe interest on the payments (both lump sum and pension) which are late.  I think the Court rate of interest on debts is 8% pa.  So I think you should get in touch with the administrators saying that is the interest rate you expect on the late payments.  Lodge a formal complaint now and talk to the Pensions Ombudsman office to see what they say about buy ins being used as an excuse for late payment.  Maybe they have heard of other cases and can give you some help on speeding things along.

And then I think you should email or call the scheme administrators every day until they pay up.  Make a nuisance of yourself.

PO isn't going to say anything specific, and will simply (correctly) point out that if the case is submitted to them (after it has completed the whole IDRP), they will consider all relevant facts.

Better idea: let them get on with sorting out the issue rather than downing tools every day just to say the same thing.

Thanks @marcon - if I initiate the IDRP, does this force them to involve the trustees?  Ever since they appointed a professional trustee, I have never been given any direct contact information - all the letters just say to contact the administrator?

Hoenir

DRS1 said:

I am simply applying the squeaky wheel principle.  And if I were the OP facing the prospect of having to borrow money or max out my credit cards in a few months then I would be jumping up and down to make sure they are actually doing something to sort out the situation.

Achieves little other than to damage ones own mental health. 

Marcon

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

My PCLS for my DB pension (and the missing monthly payments) is nearly 2 months late into payment and counting.  The provider claims that they are waiting for buy in funds to be provided by the insurer, but this has been the same update for many weeks.

In about 2 months from now, if it still isn't paid, I will start to incur financial losses depending how I manage the situation.  These could include:
- I might need to take out a loan or run up credit card bills.
- I may be forced to sell investments at a loss depending on market conditions, and take money out of ISA accounts where I will lose the tax wrapper status.
- I might be forced to request my employer whether I can go back to working full time (which they may or may not agree to) as I went part time at the start of this year.

This is in the end a short term situation because we are also in the process of downsizing (sale agreed on both sides), so in about 3 months from now it will not be an issue either way.

I am wondering what is the best way to manage this if I want to make a complaint to the DB provider and ask for recompense for my losses?  For example, the cheapest way for me to fund the short term gap is to take out a personal loan, and then pay back the personal loan as soon as I have the money available.  However, this way it will be hard to demonstrate my exact losses (the interest that was charged during the time the loan was in payment).  Alternatively I can use credit card borrowing which will be much more expensive but it will be easier to demonstrate the exact amount of losses/interest incurred?

'The provider' is still the trustee of your DB scheme at the buy in stage. If you're going to make a formal complaint, then use the scheme's Internal Dispute Resolution Procedure (copy available from the administrators if there isn't a website where you can download it - an IDRP is scheme-specific).

If you've not got a flexible ISA, now might be the moment (although remember that funds withdrawn from it have to returned to it within the same tax year to ensure they keep their ISA status).

DRS1 said:

There has been mention of issues with payments from schemes which have bought in their liabilities on here before (unless that was the OP on another thread).  It may be possible that this is a new set up and the scheme and the insurer need to work out the kinks but there is no excuse for paying late.  They owe interest on the payments (both lump sum and pension) which are late.  I think the Court rate of interest on debts is 8% pa.  So I think you should get in touch with the administrators saying that is the interest rate you expect on the late payments.  Lodge a formal complaint now and talk to the Pensions Ombudsman office to see what they say about buy ins being used as an excuse for late payment.  Maybe they have heard of other cases and can give you some help on speeding things along.

And then I think you should email or call the scheme administrators every day until they pay up.  Make a nuisance of yourself.

PO isn't going to say anything specific, and will simply (correctly) point out that if the case is submitted to them (after it has completed the whole IDRP), they will consider all relevant facts.

Better idea: let them get on with sorting out the issue rather than downing tools every day just to say the same thing.

Thanks @marcon - if I initiate the IDRP, does this force them to involve the trustees?  Ever since they appointed a professional trustee, I have never been given any direct contact information - all the letters just say to contact the administrator?

Yes*. An IDRP can have either one or two stages, and the trustees (or a sub-committee of them) must be involved at stage one (if one stage), or stage two (if two stages). I wish more members would use the IDRP - it's there for a reason and apart from anything else, clears the way to go to the Pensions Ombudsman if necessary - something administrators and trustees (especially professional trustees!) are equally unenthusiastic about.

Ask the administrators for a copy of the IDRP. That will give you the appropriate contact information. If it's a two stage process, you can't skip stage one and head straight for stage two!

*In the private sector. Some public sector schemes don't have trustees, in which case suitable managers handle their IDRP.

Marcon

DRS1 said:

PO isn't going to say anything specific, and will simply (correctly) point out that if the case is submitted to them (after it has completed the whole IDRP), they will consider all relevant facts.

Sometimes there are things which come up often enough for the PO to issue a helpful note on the subject (eg overpayments).  This may be too new for that but if it is becoming a "thing" then the Ombudsman might have something useful to say - even if it is that they think it is fine for schemes to use delays by insurers as an excuse for late payment of benefits.  And if they say that then the OP knows he is on a hiding to nothing  and can do what you say next:

Never going to happen in relation to a buy in.  A buy in contract is simply 'an investment' - albeit one that (should) be paying an amount which exactly matches the amounts payable. Claiming that the insurers of a buy in are causing a delay to payment is never going to be an acceptable excuse, never mind a valid reason. The trustees need to ensure that they are on the case, either directly or via their administrators, and getting the money paid. Payment dates will be covered in the contract between the trustees and the buy in provider, and it's for the trustees - not the poor old members - to enforce these.

Delays by insurers may be a valid reason in other circumstances (eg where a member dies in service and the DIS benefit is insured), but that's a wholly different scenario.

DRS1 said:

PO isn't going to say anything specific, and will simply (correctly) point out that if the case is submitted to them (after it has completed the whole IDRP), they will consider all relevant facts.

Sometimes there are things which come up often enough for the PO to issue a helpful note on the subject (eg overpayments).  This may be too new for that but if it is becoming a "thing" then the Ombudsman might have something useful to say - even if it is that they think it is fine for schemes to use delays by insurers as an excuse for late payment of benefits.  And if they say that then the OP knows he is on a hiding to nothing  and can do what you say next:

Better idea: let them get on with sorting out the issue rather than downing tools every day just to say the same thing.

I am simply applying the squeaky wheel principle.  And if I were the OP facing the prospect of having to borrow money or max out my credit cards in a few months then I would be jumping up and down to make sure they are actually doing something to sort out the situation.

Squeaky wheels just annoy people, and that's what OP would be doing if they badgered constantly.  It is patently absurd that a member should have to be planning a fallback position if their pension isn't paid (reasonably) close to the due date, provided they have given adequate notice of their intention to start drawing the pension and provided all the required paperwork.

Jumping up and down isn't the answer. Getting the job done is what matters.

It's not good enough for trustees to delegate and wash their hands of what happens in practice.They need to get involved and do their job, not leave it to the members - but trustees need to be made aware when there is an issue. That's not information the administrators are going to be volunteering if they can avoid doing so... 

Pat38493

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

My PCLS for my DB pension (and the missing monthly payments) is nearly 2 months late into payment and counting.  The provider claims that they are waiting for buy in funds to be provided by the insurer, but this has been the same update for many weeks.

In about 2 months from now, if it still isn't paid, I will start to incur financial losses depending how I manage the situation.  These could include:
- I might need to take out a loan or run up credit card bills.
- I may be forced to sell investments at a loss depending on market conditions, and take money out of ISA accounts where I will lose the tax wrapper status.
- I might be forced to request my employer whether I can go back to working full time (which they may or may not agree to) as I went part time at the start of this year.

This is in the end a short term situation because we are also in the process of downsizing (sale agreed on both sides), so in about 3 months from now it will not be an issue either way.

I am wondering what is the best way to manage this if I want to make a complaint to the DB provider and ask for recompense for my losses?  For example, the cheapest way for me to fund the short term gap is to take out a personal loan, and then pay back the personal loan as soon as I have the money available.  However, this way it will be hard to demonstrate my exact losses (the interest that was charged during the time the loan was in payment).  Alternatively I can use credit card borrowing which will be much more expensive but it will be easier to demonstrate the exact amount of losses/interest incurred?

'The provider' is still the trustee of your DB scheme at the buy in stage. If you're going to make a formal complaint, then use the scheme's Internal Dispute Resolution Procedure (copy available from the administrators if there isn't a website where you can download it - an IDRP is scheme-specific).

If you've not got a flexible ISA, now might be the moment (although remember that funds withdrawn from it have to returned to it within the same tax year to ensure they keep their ISA status).

DRS1 said:

There has been mention of issues with payments from schemes which have bought in their liabilities on here before (unless that was the OP on another thread).  It may be possible that this is a new set up and the scheme and the insurer need to work out the kinks but there is no excuse for paying late.  They owe interest on the payments (both lump sum and pension) which are late.  I think the Court rate of interest on debts is 8% pa.  So I think you should get in touch with the administrators saying that is the interest rate you expect on the late payments.  Lodge a formal complaint now and talk to the Pensions Ombudsman office to see what they say about buy ins being used as an excuse for late payment.  Maybe they have heard of other cases and can give you some help on speeding things along.

And then I think you should email or call the scheme administrators every day until they pay up.  Make a nuisance of yourself.

PO isn't going to say anything specific, and will simply (correctly) point out that if the case is submitted to them (after it has completed the whole IDRP), they will consider all relevant facts.

Better idea: let them get on with sorting out the issue rather than downing tools every day just to say the same thing.

Thanks @marcon - if I initiate the IDRP, does this force them to involve the trustees?  Ever since they appointed a professional trustee, I have never been given any direct contact information - all the letters just say to contact the administrator?

Yes*. An IDRP can have either one or two stages, and the trustees (or a sub-committee of them) must be involved at stage one (if one stage), or stage two (if two stages). I wish more members would use the IDRP - it's there for a reason and apart from anything else, clears the way to go to the Pensions Ombudsman if necessary - something administrators and trustees (especially professional trustees!) are equally unenthusiastic about.

Ask the administrators for a copy of the IDRP. That will give you the appropriate contact information. If it's a two stage process, you can't skip stage one and head straight for stage two!

*In the private sector. Some public sector schemes don't have trustees, in which case suitable managers handle their IDRP.

Thanks Marcon - I have asked them for a copy of the IDRP.  Perhaps this will already hurry them along if they think I am planning to make a complaint.  

The only thing that concerns me slightly being a bit over analytical - what if the delay is because they are just on the verge of completing a buy out and the buy out would result in better results for me?  I guess I would never know either way so it's not something that I can influence? (in a previous thread, someone who was involved in a buy out said that it resulted in better ERFs for members).

There is a buy out discussion in progress - I asked for an update recently form a former trustee and he said that as far as he knows it's supposed to complete some time this year.

Shimrod

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

My PCLS for my DB pension (and the missing monthly payments) is nearly 2 months late into payment and counting.  The provider claims that they are waiting for buy in funds to be provided by the insurer, but this has been the same update for many weeks.

In about 2 months from now, if it still isn't paid, I will start to incur financial losses depending how I manage the situation.  These could include:
- I might need to take out a loan or run up credit card bills.
- I may be forced to sell investments at a loss depending on market conditions, and take money out of ISA accounts where I will lose the tax wrapper status.
- I might be forced to request my employer whether I can go back to working full time (which they may or may not agree to) as I went part time at the start of this year.

This is in the end a short term situation because we are also in the process of downsizing (sale agreed on both sides), so in about 3 months from now it will not be an issue either way.

I am wondering what is the best way to manage this if I want to make a complaint to the DB provider and ask for recompense for my losses?  For example, the cheapest way for me to fund the short term gap is to take out a personal loan, and then pay back the personal loan as soon as I have the money available.  However, this way it will be hard to demonstrate my exact losses (the interest that was charged during the time the loan was in payment).  Alternatively I can use credit card borrowing which will be much more expensive but it will be easier to demonstrate the exact amount of losses/interest incurred?

'The provider' is still the trustee of your DB scheme at the buy in stage. If you're going to make a formal complaint, then use the scheme's Internal Dispute Resolution Procedure (copy available from the administrators if there isn't a website where you can download it - an IDRP is scheme-specific).

If you've not got a flexible ISA, now might be the moment (although remember that funds withdrawn from it have to returned to it within the same tax year to ensure they keep their ISA status).

DRS1 said:

There has been mention of issues with payments from schemes which have bought in their liabilities on here before (unless that was the OP on another thread).  It may be possible that this is a new set up and the scheme and the insurer need to work out the kinks but there is no excuse for paying late.  They owe interest on the payments (both lump sum and pension) which are late.  I think the Court rate of interest on debts is 8% pa.  So I think you should get in touch with the administrators saying that is the interest rate you expect on the late payments.  Lodge a formal complaint now and talk to the Pensions Ombudsman office to see what they say about buy ins being used as an excuse for late payment.  Maybe they have heard of other cases and can give you some help on speeding things along.

And then I think you should email or call the scheme administrators every day until they pay up.  Make a nuisance of yourself.

PO isn't going to say anything specific, and will simply (correctly) point out that if the case is submitted to them (after it has completed the whole IDRP), they will consider all relevant facts.

Better idea: let them get on with sorting out the issue rather than downing tools every day just to say the same thing.

Thanks @marcon - if I initiate the IDRP, does this force them to involve the trustees?  Ever since they appointed a professional trustee, I have never been given any direct contact information - all the letters just say to contact the administrator?

Yes*. An IDRP can have either one or two stages, and the trustees (or a sub-committee of them) must be involved at stage one (if one stage), or stage two (if two stages). I wish more members would use the IDRP - it's there for a reason and apart from anything else, clears the way to go to the Pensions Ombudsman if necessary - something administrators and trustees (especially professional trustees!) are equally unenthusiastic about.

Ask the administrators for a copy of the IDRP. That will give you the appropriate contact information. If it's a two stage process, you can't skip stage one and head straight for stage two!

*In the private sector. Some public sector schemes don't have trustees, in which case suitable managers handle their IDRP.

Thanks Marcon - I have asked them for a copy of the IDRP.  Perhaps this will already hurry them along if they think I am planning to make a complaint.  

The only thing that concerns me slightly being a bit over analytical - what if the delay is because they are just on the verge of completing a buy out and the buy out would result in better results for me?  I guess I would never know either way so it's not something that I can influence? (in a previous thread, someone who was involved in a buy out said that it resulted in better ERFs for members).

There is a buy out discussion in progress - I asked for an update recently form a former trustee and he said that as far as he knows it's supposed to complete some time this year.

I would expect the trustee and administrators are already using the insurance company factors when calculating early  retirement and commutation rates. We changed ours (I am a pension trustee) once we had completed the buy-in process. It is likely that the insurance company factors are more favourable than those used by the pension fund previously.

The buy out process can be drawn out - we are 12 months behind and looking to complete late this year  - most of that delay is due to the glacial performance of the insurance company, plus additional data cleansing exercises (final attempts to trace 'missing' members) which impact the final premium to be paid to the insurance company.

Prior to buy-in, we would get a forecast of retirements in the next six months and sell sufficient investments to cover expected lump sums. Now the administrators have to request the additional cash from the insurance company adding another step - it seems like you have given plenty of notice, but the additional step does add potential for missed communication. 

At the point of administration handover there will be a small blackout period when we have to suspend any new pension claims - in your case it could be this has happened and delayed your pension processing.

Pat38493

Shimrod said:

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

My PCLS for my DB pension (and the missing monthly payments) is nearly 2 months late into payment and counting.  The provider claims that they are waiting for buy in funds to be provided by the insurer, but this has been the same update for many weeks.

In about 2 months from now, if it still isn't paid, I will start to incur financial losses depending how I manage the situation.  These could include:
- I might need to take out a loan or run up credit card bills.
- I may be forced to sell investments at a loss depending on market conditions, and take money out of ISA accounts where I will lose the tax wrapper status.
- I might be forced to request my employer whether I can go back to working full time (which they may or may not agree to) as I went part time at the start of this year.

This is in the end a short term situation because we are also in the process of downsizing (sale agreed on both sides), so in about 3 months from now it will not be an issue either way.

I am wondering what is the best way to manage this if I want to make a complaint to the DB provider and ask for recompense for my losses?  For example, the cheapest way for me to fund the short term gap is to take out a personal loan, and then pay back the personal loan as soon as I have the money available.  However, this way it will be hard to demonstrate my exact losses (the interest that was charged during the time the loan was in payment).  Alternatively I can use credit card borrowing which will be much more expensive but it will be easier to demonstrate the exact amount of losses/interest incurred?

'The provider' is still the trustee of your DB scheme at the buy in stage. If you're going to make a formal complaint, then use the scheme's Internal Dispute Resolution Procedure (copy available from the administrators if there isn't a website where you can download it - an IDRP is scheme-specific).

If you've not got a flexible ISA, now might be the moment (although remember that funds withdrawn from it have to returned to it within the same tax year to ensure they keep their ISA status).

DRS1 said:

There has been mention of issues with payments from schemes which have bought in their liabilities on here before (unless that was the OP on another thread).  It may be possible that this is a new set up and the scheme and the insurer need to work out the kinks but there is no excuse for paying late.  They owe interest on the payments (both lump sum and pension) which are late.  I think the Court rate of interest on debts is 8% pa.  So I think you should get in touch with the administrators saying that is the interest rate you expect on the late payments.  Lodge a formal complaint now and talk to the Pensions Ombudsman office to see what they say about buy ins being used as an excuse for late payment.  Maybe they have heard of other cases and can give you some help on speeding things along.

And then I think you should email or call the scheme administrators every day until they pay up.  Make a nuisance of yourself.

PO isn't going to say anything specific, and will simply (correctly) point out that if the case is submitted to them (after it has completed the whole IDRP), they will consider all relevant facts.

Better idea: let them get on with sorting out the issue rather than downing tools every day just to say the same thing.

Thanks @marcon - if I initiate the IDRP, does this force them to involve the trustees?  Ever since they appointed a professional trustee, I have never been given any direct contact information - all the letters just say to contact the administrator?

Yes*. An IDRP can have either one or two stages, and the trustees (or a sub-committee of them) must be involved at stage one (if one stage), or stage two (if two stages). I wish more members would use the IDRP - it's there for a reason and apart from anything else, clears the way to go to the Pensions Ombudsman if necessary - something administrators and trustees (especially professional trustees!) are equally unenthusiastic about.

Ask the administrators for a copy of the IDRP. That will give you the appropriate contact information. If it's a two stage process, you can't skip stage one and head straight for stage two!

*In the private sector. Some public sector schemes don't have trustees, in which case suitable managers handle their IDRP.

Thanks Marcon - I have asked them for a copy of the IDRP.  Perhaps this will already hurry them along if they think I am planning to make a complaint.  

The only thing that concerns me slightly being a bit over analytical - what if the delay is because they are just on the verge of completing a buy out and the buy out would result in better results for me?  I guess I would never know either way so it's not something that I can influence? (in a previous thread, someone who was involved in a buy out said that it resulted in better ERFs for members).

There is a buy out discussion in progress - I asked for an update recently form a former trustee and he said that as far as he knows it's supposed to complete some time this year.

I would expect the trustee and administrators are already using the insurance company factors when calculating early  retirement and commutation rates. We changed ours (I am a pension trustee) once we had completed the buy-in process. It is likely that the insurance company factors are more favourable than those used by the pension fund previously.

The buy out process can be drawn out - we are 12 months behind and looking to complete late this year  - most of that delay is due to the glacial performance of the insurance company, plus additional data cleansing exercises (final attempts to trace 'missing' members) which impact the final premium to be paid to the insurance company.

Prior to buy-in, we would get a forecast of retirements in the next six months and sell sufficient investments to cover expected lump sums. Now the administrators have to request the additional cash from the insurance company adding another step - it seems like you have given plenty of notice, but the additional step does add potential for missed communication. 

At the point of administration handover there will be a small blackout period when we have to suspend any new pension claims - in your case it could be this has happened and delayed your pension processing.

Thank you this is very helpful.  Regardin the last poine, wouldn't they just inform me about that if it was the case?

Marcon

Pat38493 said:

Shimrod said:

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

My PCLS for my DB pension (and the missing monthly payments) is nearly 2 months late into payment and counting.  The provider claims that they are waiting for buy in funds to be provided by the insurer, but this has been the same update for many weeks.

In about 2 months from now, if it still isn't paid, I will start to incur financial losses depending how I manage the situation.  These could include:
- I might need to take out a loan or run up credit card bills.
- I may be forced to sell investments at a loss depending on market conditions, and take money out of ISA accounts where I will lose the tax wrapper status.
- I might be forced to request my employer whether I can go back to working full time (which they may or may not agree to) as I went part time at the start of this year.

This is in the end a short term situation because we are also in the process of downsizing (sale agreed on both sides), so in about 3 months from now it will not be an issue either way.

I am wondering what is the best way to manage this if I want to make a complaint to the DB provider and ask for recompense for my losses?  For example, the cheapest way for me to fund the short term gap is to take out a personal loan, and then pay back the personal loan as soon as I have the money available.  However, this way it will be hard to demonstrate my exact losses (the interest that was charged during the time the loan was in payment).  Alternatively I can use credit card borrowing which will be much more expensive but it will be easier to demonstrate the exact amount of losses/interest incurred?

'The provider' is still the trustee of your DB scheme at the buy in stage. If you're going to make a formal complaint, then use the scheme's Internal Dispute Resolution Procedure (copy available from the administrators if there isn't a website where you can download it - an IDRP is scheme-specific).

If you've not got a flexible ISA, now might be the moment (although remember that funds withdrawn from it have to returned to it within the same tax year to ensure they keep their ISA status).

DRS1 said:

There has been mention of issues with payments from schemes which have bought in their liabilities on here before (unless that was the OP on another thread).  It may be possible that this is a new set up and the scheme and the insurer need to work out the kinks but there is no excuse for paying late.  They owe interest on the payments (both lump sum and pension) which are late.  I think the Court rate of interest on debts is 8% pa.  So I think you should get in touch with the administrators saying that is the interest rate you expect on the late payments.  Lodge a formal complaint now and talk to the Pensions Ombudsman office to see what they say about buy ins being used as an excuse for late payment.  Maybe they have heard of other cases and can give you some help on speeding things along.

And then I think you should email or call the scheme administrators every day until they pay up.  Make a nuisance of yourself.

PO isn't going to say anything specific, and will simply (correctly) point out that if the case is submitted to them (after it has completed the whole IDRP), they will consider all relevant facts.

Better idea: let them get on with sorting out the issue rather than downing tools every day just to say the same thing.

Thanks @marcon - if I initiate the IDRP, does this force them to involve the trustees?  Ever since they appointed a professional trustee, I have never been given any direct contact information - all the letters just say to contact the administrator?

Yes*. An IDRP can have either one or two stages, and the trustees (or a sub-committee of them) must be involved at stage one (if one stage), or stage two (if two stages). I wish more members would use the IDRP - it's there for a reason and apart from anything else, clears the way to go to the Pensions Ombudsman if necessary - something administrators and trustees (especially professional trustees!) are equally unenthusiastic about.

Ask the administrators for a copy of the IDRP. That will give you the appropriate contact information. If it's a two stage process, you can't skip stage one and head straight for stage two!

*In the private sector. Some public sector schemes don't have trustees, in which case suitable managers handle their IDRP.

Thanks Marcon - I have asked them for a copy of the IDRP.  Perhaps this will already hurry them along if they think I am planning to make a complaint.  

The only thing that concerns me slightly being a bit over analytical - what if the delay is because they are just on the verge of completing a buy out and the buy out would result in better results for me?  I guess I would never know either way so it's not something that I can influence? (in a previous thread, someone who was involved in a buy out said that it resulted in better ERFs for members).

There is a buy out discussion in progress - I asked for an update recently form a former trustee and he said that as far as he knows it's supposed to complete some time this year.

I would expect the trustee and administrators are already using the insurance company factors when calculating early  retirement and commutation rates. We changed ours (I am a pension trustee) once we had completed the buy-in process. It is likely that the insurance company factors are more favourable than those used by the pension fund previously.

The buy out process can be drawn out - we are 12 months behind and looking to complete late this year  - most of that delay is due to the glacial performance of the insurance company, plus additional data cleansing exercises (final attempts to trace 'missing' members) which impact the final premium to be paid to the insurance company.

Prior to buy-in, we would get a forecast of retirements in the next six months and sell sufficient investments to cover expected lump sums. Now the administrators have to request the additional cash from the insurance company adding another step - it seems like you have given plenty of notice, but the additional step does add potential for missed communication. 

At the point of administration handover there will be a small blackout period when we have to suspend any new pension claims - in your case it could be this has happened and delayed your pension processing.

Thank you this is very helpful.  Regardin the last poine, wouldn't they just inform me about that if it was the case?

'Would' and 'should' are sometimes used interchangeably! 

Your opening post on this thread was full of woe and the dire consequences which could follow if payment was delayed any longer, but now it's a case of well, I might get better ERF, so perhaps.... Before you go any further, be very clear what you want to achieve. 

Ask the specific question about ERF and about processing pension claims. Yours isn't 'new'; you gave notice 3 months before the due date you wanted payment to start, and the claim is now 2 months overdue. Ask the trustees, explaining briefly why you are approaching them rather than the administrators (absolutely no harm in mentioning that you've asked for a copy of the IDRP).

'Blackout' doesn't mean the trustees are entitled to impose an information blackout and leave members in the dark.

Pat38493

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

Shimrod said:

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

Marcon said:

Pat38493 said:

My PCLS for my DB pension (and the missing monthly payments) is nearly 2 months late into payment and counting.  The provider claims that they are waiting for buy in funds to be provided by the insurer, but this has been the same update for many weeks.

In about 2 months from now, if it still isn't paid, I will start to incur financial losses depending how I manage the situation.  These could include:
- I might need to take out a loan or run up credit card bills.
- I may be forced to sell investments at a loss depending on market conditions, and take money out of ISA accounts where I will lose the tax wrapper status.
- I might be forced to request my employer whether I can go back to working full time (which they may or may not agree to) as I went part time at the start of this year.

This is in the end a short term situation because we are also in the process of downsizing (sale agreed on both sides), so in about 3 months from now it will not be an issue either way.

I am wondering what is the best way to manage this if I want to make a complaint to the DB provider and ask for recompense for my losses?  For example, the cheapest way for me to fund the short term gap is to take out a personal loan, and then pay back the personal loan as soon as I have the money available.  However, this way it will be hard to demonstrate my exact losses (the interest that was charged during the time the loan was in payment).  Alternatively I can use credit card borrowing which will be much more expensive but it will be easier to demonstrate the exact amount of losses/interest incurred?

'The provider' is still the trustee of your DB scheme at the buy in stage. If you're going to make a formal complaint, then use the scheme's Internal Dispute Resolution Procedure (copy available from the administrators if there isn't a website where you can download it - an IDRP is scheme-specific).

If you've not got a flexible ISA, now might be the moment (although remember that funds withdrawn from it have to returned to it within the same tax year to ensure they keep their ISA status).

DRS1 said:

There has been mention of issues with payments from schemes which have bought in their liabilities on here before (unless that was the OP on another thread).  It may be possible that this is a new set up and the scheme and the insurer need to work out the kinks but there is no excuse for paying late.  They owe interest on the payments (both lump sum and pension) which are late.  I think the Court rate of interest on debts is 8% pa.  So I think you should get in touch with the administrators saying that is the interest rate you expect on the late payments.  Lodge a formal complaint now and talk to the Pensions Ombudsman office to see what they say about buy ins being used as an excuse for late payment.  Maybe they have heard of other cases and can give you some help on speeding things along.

And then I think you should email or call the scheme administrators every day until they pay up.  Make a nuisance of yourself.

PO isn't going to say anything specific, and will simply (correctly) point out that if the case is submitted to them (after it has completed the whole IDRP), they will consider all relevant facts.

Better idea: let them get on with sorting out the issue rather than downing tools every day just to say the same thing.

Thanks @marcon - if I initiate the IDRP, does this force them to involve the trustees?  Ever since they appointed a professional trustee, I have never been given any direct contact information - all the letters just say to contact the administrator?

Yes*. An IDRP can have either one or two stages, and the trustees (or a sub-committee of them) must be involved at stage one (if one stage), or stage two (if two stages). I wish more members would use the IDRP - it's there for a reason and apart from anything else, clears the way to go to the Pensions Ombudsman if necessary - something administrators and trustees (especially professional trustees!) are equally unenthusiastic about.

Ask the administrators for a copy of the IDRP. That will give you the appropriate contact information. If it's a two stage process, you can't skip stage one and head straight for stage two!

*In the private sector. Some public sector schemes don't have trustees, in which case suitable managers handle their IDRP.

Thanks Marcon - I have asked them for a copy of the IDRP.  Perhaps this will already hurry them along if they think I am planning to make a complaint.  

The only thing that concerns me slightly being a bit over analytical - what if the delay is because they are just on the verge of completing a buy out and the buy out would result in better results for me?  I guess I would never know either way so it's not something that I can influence? (in a previous thread, someone who was involved in a buy out said that it resulted in better ERFs for members).

There is a buy out discussion in progress - I asked for an update recently form a former trustee and he said that as far as he knows it's supposed to complete some time this year.

I would expect the trustee and administrators are already using the insurance company factors when calculating early  retirement and commutation rates. We changed ours (I am a pension trustee) once we had completed the buy-in process. It is likely that the insurance company factors are more favourable than those used by the pension fund previously.

The buy out process can be drawn out - we are 12 months behind and looking to complete late this year  - most of that delay is due to the glacial performance of the insurance company, plus additional data cleansing exercises (final attempts to trace 'missing' members) which impact the final premium to be paid to the insurance company.

Prior to buy-in, we would get a forecast of retirements in the next six months and sell sufficient investments to cover expected lump sums. Now the administrators have to request the additional cash from the insurance company adding another step - it seems like you have given plenty of notice, but the additional step does add potential for missed communication. 

At the point of administration handover there will be a small blackout period when we have to suspend any new pension claims - in your case it could be this has happened and delayed your pension processing.

Thank you this is very helpful.  Regardin the last poine, wouldn't they just inform me about that if it was the case?

'Would' and 'should' are sometimes used interchangeably! 

Your opening post on this thread was full of woe and the dire consequences which could follow if payment was delayed any longer, but now it's a case of well, I might get better ERF, so perhaps.... Before you go any further, be very clear what you want to achieve. 

Ask the specific question about ERF and about processing pension claims. Yours isn't 'new'; you gave notice 3 months before the due date you wanted payment to start, and the claim is now 2 months overdue. Ask the trustees, explaining briefly why you are approaching them rather than the administrators (absolutely no harm in mentioning that you've asked for a copy of the IDRP).

'Blackout' doesn't mean the trustees are entitled to impose an information blackout and leave members in the dark.

Not dire consequences but the original question was really about whether I could claim back my losses from them - e.g. if I end up spending several hundred pounds on interest charges due to their tardiness.  I could also be asking if I can claim compensation for the stress caused by waiting for news about it but I doubt that is going to fly.

As I mentioned in my OP, we are in the process of downsizing the house.  Putting the DB into payment and taking the PCLS was a decision I made when I wanted to go part time, and the house had already been on the market for quite a while and not sold.

Ironically, in about 3 months from now we will very likely end up with nearly £300K (house proceeds plus PCLS) outside of tax wrappers that we then need to figure out how to manage.

Unfortunately I have to make the decisions based on the possibility that the house chain could collapse.  If I was 100% sure it woudl be fine, my more rational option would be to try to completely cancel putting the DB into payment, use borrowing to bridge any short gap,  and then leave the DB deferred for a few more years.  However I can't be sure about that so I am where I am.

Of course I could have worked on a year longer at full time, but my wife is already retired and has some health issues so I took the judgement that time is more important.  Of course I can also reduce expenses if I really need to so I am not going to starve or go bankrupt.

DRS1

 I could also be asking if I can claim compensation for the stress caused by waiting for news about it but I doubt that is going to fly.

Sometimes that is the only thing you might get from a complaint (either under IDRP or to the Ombudsman).  It is called distress and inconvenience.

It is interesting to see that your timetable might not be as urgent as it seemed.  I was going to mention that the IDRP could take months to generate a result which may not help you if you needed things sorted in the next two months.