I struggle to read, but want to run my own DMP

AudADHDGuyWithABrainInjury

I heard a great description of this the other night, by someone with the same issues.

They compared it to a professional engineer on one side of the brain & a highly caffeinated toddler on the other, fighting it out & neither will win.

That is a very insightful description!

AudADHDGuyWithABrainInjury

Brie said:

Have you considered getting a Mental Health and Debt Evidence form?  This is something that your doctor or  another medical professional dealing with your mental health can sign attesting to the fact that you have certain cognitive issues.  Some surgeries will tell you you have to pay to have this signed but I've been told that the British Medical Association has stated that there should be no charge as they recognise the close connection between mental health and debt and how badly debt can rebound and worse an individual's mental health issues.  

Here's some info from StepChange about it.


Basically with this submitted to your creditors they may acknowledge that getting into debt is a symptom of your mental health issues rather than you simply overspending.  On this basis they will at the very least be much more cooperative and in some cases may write off some or all of the debt.  If it helps you even a little that would be a good thing.

Also - regarding the bounce back loan.  Is the business still operating?  If not and if you have not guaranteed the loan personally then if the business closes there is no way for the money to be paid back.  At least that's how I understand it.  Someone who is an accountant would likely be able to explain it better than myself but I have heard about this happening so that someone allows the company to be closed officially and can therefore no longer have to deal with any of the debts of the business.  Maybe one of the other experts here knows more???  Anyways - just a thought.

AND if you don't like StepChange or Paypal would another agency be easier to work with?  I believe NationalDebtline is much like StepChange.  But there is also Citizen's Advice who might help guide you through some of the set up of a DMP.  Likewise Community Money Advice (CMA) and Christians Against Poverty (CAP) might assist.  These 3 organisations tend to work face to face but don't actually handle the DMP itself.  They get you to the point where you can manage it yourself which is what you seem to want to do.  

Hi Brie

thank you for trying to help me

i did not know about the Debt and Mental Health Evidence form, I’ll take a look at that now.  Part of the debt was accrued paying for private healthcare as the local CMHT decided my needs were too complex and refused to treat the complex ptsd that is the underlying cause of the concussion never going away.  Additionally I could not wait for 5 years to have ADHD treated.  I have next to no contact with my GP, but I have signed reports from a clinical psychologist, a neurologist, a neuropsychologist and a psychiatrist so that should help in terms of evidence.

You are 100% correct about the LLC being liable for the bounce back loan and not me.  I could close down the business tomorrow and the bank could not chase me for the debt.  They could shut down my personal current account though, and I know this will probably seem stupid to you but the loss of that would cause a catastrophic mental health crisis in which I may end dying.  I am not wired how most people are and it presents difficulties like this, which I appreciate are not easy to understand for most people.  I think it’s probably as difficult for someone to wrap their head around as it is for me to try and figure out social cues everyone else takes as read.

I think stepchange and payplan are the best options if you were to have someone else manage a DMP for you.  I just can’t let someone else have control of any of my affairs as it will result in me being tortured by my own mind.

Yeah, I know it’s nonsensical and stupid on the face of it.  If I could have someone else manage the DMP, I’d let them.  

ManyWays

You are the expert on your mental health, but ND often makes it hard to evaluate something outside your experience such as a DMP because of problems such as information overload, time blindness, anxiety, and decision paralysis. And many ND people find it hard to manage a complicated situation over a long period because of memory problems, organisational difficulty, handling communications, time management, and not wanting to adapt your plan when something changes.

You may not have all of those issues, or some may only be slight for you, and you may have other aspects that I havent mentioned. I am not trying to tell you how your brain works.

But I am concerned you dont properly understand how a DMP with StepChange works. (I'll put a bit on the end about Payplan and CAP.)

A DMP is VERY "non-invasive" and you are in control.

You can set up a DMP with StepChange without ever speaking on the phone. You complete their online advice form with information on your income, debts and expenses and it suggests your possible options. So for a DMP it would suggest how much you would pay a month. You have total control over what to choose and if you do nothing you will not be asked why, or pestered, or be sent more reasons why you should do this. 

If you decide to go forward, then you cancel the payments you are making to your debts, and set up a monthly Standing Order to StepChange (so you are in control of the payments). They then divide this up and pay your creditors. When one of your debts is sold to a debt collector, Stepchange switches to paying the debt collector.

If your council tax or rent goes up and you can't pay as much, or you need a temporary break for some reason, or you get some work and pay more, you tell StepChange. StepChange then works out new monthly payments, and they tell all your creditors and start paying them the new amount. You just change the Standing order to StepChange.

There is an annual review which is usually done online (you can always speak to someone if you want, most people dont need to and you may prefer not to), https://www.stepchange.org/clients/completing-my-review-online.aspx

You dont have to give StepChange access to your bank account. They dont check your credit records. You can still apply for more debt (probably not a great idea but they cant stop you dong it and wont know if you have.)

They cant make you pay more, you are not in a formal contract and you can always tell them you want to end the DMP at any time.  

You will get some letters and calls from creditors especially early on while the DMP is getting going.  You can minimise these by telling StepChange to set up a "breathing space", this isnt actually needed for most DMPs but it will really reduce the number of communications you get. After the first few months you will probably only get letter that ccreditors are legally obliged to send.

You will get many, many more communications in a DIY DMP, if you dont mind them and you are well organised, these calls, texts and letters arent too bad, but they may be something you prefer not to have to deal with.

In summary, I understand your concern about autonomy but this has to be weighed against the practical aspects of managing a situation both this year and for the next few years.

The basics of a DMP with Payplan or CAP are much the same. Payplan are good if you have an erratic income because of self employment, but you dont. Payplan also tend to be much more pushy at the start, whereas StepChange are so unpushy as to be practically invisible. CAP are lovely if you want friendly people to talk to and ongoing support when the DMP is running. I think they can run a "digital only" DMP if you prefer not to use the phone, but it isnt their big strength. 

  

AudADHDGuyWithABrainInjury

ManyWays said:

You are the expert on your mental health, but ND often makes it hard to evaluate something outside your experience such as a DMP because of problems such as information overload, time blindness, anxiety, and decision paralysis. And many ND people find it hard to manage a complicated situation over a long period because of memory problems, organisational difficulty, handling communications, time management, and not wanting to adapt your plan when something changes.

You may not have all of those issues, or some may only be slight for you, and you may have other aspects that I havent mentioned. I am not trying to tell you how your brain works.

But I am concerned you dont properly understand how a DMP with StepChange works. (I'll put a bit on the end about Payplan and CAP.)

A DMP is VERY "non-invasive" and you are in control.

You can set up a DMP with StepChange without ever speaking on the phone. You complete their online advice form with information on your income, debts and expenses and it suggests your possible options. So for a DMP it would suggest how much you would pay a month. You have total control over what to choose and if you do nothing you will not be asked why, or pestered, or be sent more reasons why you should do this. 

If you decide to go forward, then you cancel the payments you are making to your debts, and set up a monthly Standing Order to StepChange (so you are in control of the payments). They then divide this up and pay your creditors. When one of your debts is sold to a debt collector, Stepchange switches to paying the debt collector.

If your council tax or rent goes up and you can't pay as much, or you need a temporary break for some reason, or you get some work and pay more, you tell StepChange. StepChange then works out new monthly payments, and they tell all your creditors and start paying them the new amount. You just change the Standing order to StepChange.

There is an annual review which is usually done online (you can always speak to someone if you want, most people dont need to and you may prefer not to),

You dont have to give StepChange access to your bank account. They dont check your credit records. You can still apply for more debt (probably not a great idea but they cant stop you dong it and wont know if you have.)

They cant make you pay more, you are not in a formal contract and you can always tell them you want to end the DMP at any time.  

You will get some letters and calls from creditors especially early on while the DMP is getting going.  You can minimise these by telling StepChange to set up a "breathing space", this isnt actually needed for most DMPs but it will really reduce the number of communications you get. After the first few months you will probably only get letter that ccreditors are legally obliged to send.

You will get many, many more communications in a DIY DMP, if you dont mind them and you are well organised, these calls, texts and letters arent too bad, but they may be something you prefer not to have to deal with.

In summary, I understand your concern about autonomy but this has to be weighed against the practical aspects of managing a situation both this year and for the next few years.

The basics of a DMP with Payplan or CAP are much the same. Payplan are good if you have an erratic income because of self employment, but you dont. Payplan also tend to be much more pushy at the start, whereas StepChange are so unpushy as to be practically invisible. CAP are lovely if you want friendly people to talk to and ongoing support when the DMP is running. I think they can run a "digital only" DMP if you prefer not to use the phone, but it isnt their big strength. 

  

Thank you for your response

Perhaps I didn’t fully understand how stepchange works

Here’s the sticking points as I see them-

” Do I have to include all my debts in my DMP?

Yes. By including all your debts in your DMP you are showing your creditors that you are treating them fairly.”

I don’t want to include the debt to Tesco in the DMP, and contrary to StepChange’s website another poster earlier said I don’t have to- was the poster incorrect or is StepChange trying to manage people into doing what the creditors funding them want them to do?  

The Tesco loan is a manageable fixed cost payment that I don’t need to default on.  More importantly, it would lead to me losing my current account with Barclays whom now run Tesco bank.  I genuinely can’t let that happen- I will end up in hospital or dead if I am exposed to that amount of change in that area of my life. Similarly I can pay off PayPal with my next student loan payment in April and don’t really want to default on that either.

Additionally, stepchange demand proof of income, which means handing over bank statements.  I cannot have my privacy violated that way either.  I end up dead or in hospital that way too.

I think you do not understand my concerns about autonomy and privacy.  I could die.  You might not understand that, and might find it frustrating that I do not wholeheartedly embrace what is the  pragmatic route.  But it is a matter of life and death regardless.

And whilst I genuinely don’t really see a point in living in an ableist society that has been trying to starve me into homelessness or death since I needed medical help and could no longer work, I’ve seen parents bury their children.

I do not want my mother to go through that. 

If I could use Stepchange without including all my debts and handing over my bank statements, I would.  I would love to be able to, but from their requirements it seems like I can’t utilise them on terms that will keep me safe.  I really wish I could.

AudADHDGuyWithABrainInjury

Also, apologies.  I realise now it was you that told me I could leave a debt out of the debt management plan!!!

EssexHebridean

Stop, step back a second, and  take a breath. ManyWays was very clear in the first couple of paragraphs of their post that they may not have summed up all the situations you face because of your conditions, and indeed that they may have left out some things that did affect you. Nobody is going to drive you to do anything you don’t want to do - but the whole point of these forums is that we try to ensure that the most comprehensive information is out there. This isn’t just for you, it’s for those with similar challenges who may come after you and will find the things that you have discussed here immensely helpful for them, too.  There are some things you need to be aware of though - and whether or not those sit well, we do have to be sure we include those things here  - again because this is a forum which is here to help lots of people.

On the bank account thing, as a start how about simply opening up a basic bank account with a different provider who you don’t have debts with? You don’t have to use it right now - maybe just drop £1 in there to make sure it stays open. Just open it, and get used to it being there for the time being though - it could give you more flexibility down the line, and if you never end up using it then fine, it can just be closed again. Remember what we are suggesting here isn’t “switching your bank account” - in fact it’s important that you don’t do that! 

So we have established that a DIY DMP is right for you - that’s fine. You can as said previously tell creditors that they are only to contact you in writing - you can choose only by post, or just “in writing” which would mean that they might mostly use email with certain documents by post where that is legally required. Is that something you can cope with OK do you think?

sourcrates

You have had some good advice as to the pro`s and con`s of debt management, both self managed and allowing a 3rd party to act for you, my son is autistic, so I do understand your vulnerabilities, the compartmentalisation of everything and your reluctance for change.

I would say you should just do what is best for you, if you want to self manage and keep one debt from defaulting so you get to keep your original bank account, that is fine, the beauty of self management is that you can run it however you see fit, everything is flexible, and you call the shots, I think that strategy would work best in these circumstances.

And of course any questions you have about any aspect of this, you can come back here and ask.

ManyWays

I respect your concerns about privacy and autonomy.

It is simple to leave a debt out of a DMP because if you dont mention it, StepChange dont know about it. (You would need to bump up some other expense so that the StepChange calculation of the DMP payment leaves you enough money to pay that debt, I dont think I have seen your SOA, perhaps it was on some other thread, if you can post it people may be able to suggest some higher amounts that would be likely to be accepted without questions by StepChange). 

If your only income is benefits, you can evidence those to StepChange with an award letter for any disability benefits and your most recent UC monthly statement, see https://www.stepchange.org/clients/dmp-documents.aspx. So far as I know you are not asked for a bank statement if you do that. 

By now you may be wondering if I am working for StepChange! I am not going to keep popping up and trying to change your mind, so if you would like me to try to answer a question, please tag me in it.

AudADHDGuyWithABrainInjury

Thank you for taking the time to respond.  You wrote quite a lot and I can see that you are not only looking out for me but also other people.  I think that’s a good thing, and it says an awful lot about you as a person.

[b] EssexHebridean said:

Stop, step back a second, and  take a breath. [/b]

Really, that’s not necessary.

I think you think I am upset about something or at someone. Of course I might be misreading what you said- that is the core difficulty of being autistic, our internal representation of events is different to that of neurotypicals and this leads to the double empathy problem and misunderstandings.  If you did think that, is there anything I can say to reassure you that I’m really not?

The best thing I can think to say is there’s no emotional subtext to my descriptions of reality or explanations of what can happen to me, nor are my responses personal attacks of any kind.  If someone doesn’t seem to understand something I’ve said, I just try to explain it more explicitly to them.  I do not have any feelings either way about what happens to me in a meltdown.  It simply is what it is.  For me talking about my own possible death is as emotional as describing the sky as blue.  It’s just something that is. 

[b]There are some things you need to be aware of though - and whether or not those sit well, we do have to be sure we include those things here  - again because this is a forum which is here to help lots of people. [/b]

Ok.  I agree there are things I need to be aware of, once again thank you for trying to make me aware of them.  I wish the barriers to me accessing help from StepChange had something to do with some things sitting well with me or not.  Can you please explain to me what I said that made you think that is part of why I wanted it manage the DMP myself?  

Hopefully if I can understand how I communicated the reality of my autism badly to you, I can do a better job of explaining to people in the future what happens to me in a given circumstance is outside my control and has nothing to do with what I do or do not want.

[b] On the bank account thing, as a start how about simply opening up a basic bank account with a different provider who you don’t have debts with? You don’t have to use it right now - maybe just drop £1 in there to make sure it stays open. Just open it, and get used to it being there for the time being though - it could give you more flexibility down the line, and if you never end up using it then fine, it can just be closed again. Remember what we are suggesting here isn’t “switching your bank account” - in fact it’s important that you don’t do that! [/b]

The existence or creation of a new bank account wouldn’t be a problem.  I’ve opened two in the past 3 years.  Unfortunately it would also not prevent a catastrophic meltdown that would likely result in a suicide attempt were I to lose my Barclays account, nor in any way prepare me for it.  Thank you for trying to help me find a solution to that, it seems like you thought about it quite a bit and landed on an approach not unlike exposure therapy.   Smart.

[b] So we have established that a DIY DMP is right for you - that’s fine. You can as said previously tell creditors that they are only to contact you in writing - you can choose only by post, or just “in writing” which would mean that they might mostly use email with certain documents by post where that is legally required. Is that something you can cope with OK do you think? [/b]

Sure.  Probably not over the phone, but I assume I can write to them and request this?

The body needed to be at least 10 characters long and boy did I not answer in a useful format, sorry

AudADHDGuyWithABrainInjury

ManyWays said:

I respect your concerns about privacy and autonomy.

It is simple to leave a debt out of a DMP because if you dont mention it, StepChange dont know about it. (You would need to bump up some other expense so that the StepChange calculation of the DMP payment leaves you enough money to pay that debt, I dont think I have seen your SOA, perhaps it was on some other thread, if you can post it people may be able to suggest some higher amounts that would be likely to be accepted without questions by StepChange). 

If your only income is benefits, you can evidence those to StepChange with an award letter for any disability benefits and your most recent UC monthly statement, see. So far as I know you are not asked for a bank statement if you do that. 

By now you may be wondering if I am working for StepChange! I am not going to keep popping up and trying to change your mind, so if you would like me to try to answer a question, please tag me in it.

I did not know I could tag people on this forum, thanks! @ManyWays

You won’t have to keep popping to try and change my mind.  This post of yours here already did, thank you.

You have explained how to keep a debt out of their DMP and shown me a way to work with them without giving them a bank statement.  I’ve dug out the latest award letters.

now I just wait for the defaults and contact them when those defaults roll in with my award letters, a nicely formulated budget and I can let them manage it and thereby avoid a lot of conflict 

thank you.