Neighbour downstairs planning on knocking down walls, what permission does he need?

pred02

Hi,

I own a two bedroom Edwardian maisonette  which is 1 or two in the building. Me and the downstairs owners own a share of freehold. Downstairs neighbour wants replace windows and open a french door and but also knock down one of the walls between the kitchen and 2nd bedroom. For the windows and french door he sought permission from the council, however he has not sought any permission to knock down the wall.

My fear is two-fold - the wall that he is knocking down also carriers upstairs (as seen in the drawings of our flats), builders told him its not structural but I am nervous.

Secondly, we are likely to put our maisonette on the market soon so as part of conveyancing
afraid that the buyers solicitors can pick up that he did this with other right permission of structural engineer, or party wall permission, etc.

What should I advise in this case?
1. Is party wall permission required?
2. Is building permission required?
3. Should I insist he gets a structural engineer - if so what document paperworks should I look for?

Thank you

FreeBear

pred02 said: I own a two bedroom Edwardian maisonette  which is 1 or two in the building. Me and the downstairs owners own a share of freehold. Downstairs neighbour wants replace windows and open a french door and but also knock down one of the walls between the kitchen and 2nd bedroom. For the windows and french door he sought permission from the council, however he has not sought any permission to knock down the wall.

My fear is two-fold - the wall that he is knocking down also carriers upstairs (as seen in the drawings of our flats), builders told him its not structural but I am nervous.

Secondly, we are likely to put our maisonette on the market soon so as part of conveyancing
afraid that the buyers solicitors can pick up that he did this with other right permission of structural engineer, or party wall permission, etc.

What should I advise in this case?
1. Is party wall permission required?
2. Is building permission required?
3. Should I insist he gets a structural engineer - if so what document paperworks should I look for?

First off, he will need the consent of all the freeholders.

PWA may apply, but I'm not familiar with the nuts & bolts of it.

Building Control will need to be notified as it is a structural alteration..

A structural engineer should most certainly be consulted. The opinion of a builder that the wall isn't structural can not be relied upon. Builders are not (generally) qualified to make that determination.

TELLIT01

That wall may not be bearing the weight of the joists above, but will be bearing the weight of the wall above.  If the wall in the upstairs flat is brick or block, there will certainly be a requirement for an RSJ or similar to support it.  In an older house there is every likelihood that the wall will be of solid construction in a property of that age.  We live in a 1930s house and all upstairs walls are solid.

pred02

The response I got from the neighbour is:

He had three building professionals assess the wall, all of whom confirmed it is non-load-bearing including from a registered Master Builder who confirmed his view in writing. Based on these assessments, he is confident a structural engineer or Building Regulation consent is not required.

He also noted the difference between our layouts - key differences between our layouts—his rear room being smaller than yours and around where your wall is, there is a beam running across my kitchen which suggests our walls are not structurally the same. 

Is this acceptable?  I am concerned about two things - but do not want to be overthinking it. 
1. Safety and Integrity of the walls not caving in
2. Issues when with conveyancing why I sell my flat. 

ic

You absolutely do need building regulations when knocking down walls, and they will insist on structural plans prepared by a structural engineer. https://www.gov.uk/building-regulations-approval.

TheGreenFrog

You need to check the lease (i.e. his lease).  He will likely require your consent as co-freeholder (either because teh wall is not part of his lease or because of a term in the lease requiring freeholder consent for alterations - may apply to windows etc too).  If so then I would insist on appointment (at his expense) of a surveyor to advise freeholders of the appropriate protections required.  Also, and again this depends on the lease, the envisaged works will probably not be permitted under the buildings insurance policy and additional cover will need to be arranged. 

Bear in mind however that, although he may require your consent, he may decide to go ahead anyway because as a co-freeholder he may (depending on what your lease says) be able to prevent any action for breach of his lease.  So conciliation is the way forward.  But he will probably want to get the required consents as it will otherwise complicate matters when he wants to sell.

TELLIT01

Have you been able to see for yourself that the layout of his unit is different.  If the wall beneath yours has been removed and a steel installed there is probably little to be concerned about.

Section62

pred02 said:

He had three building professionals assess the wall, all of whom confirmed it is non-load-bearing including from a registered Master Builder who confirmed his view in writing. Based on these assessments, he is confident a structural engineer or Building Regulation consent is not required.

He also noted the difference between our layouts - key differences between our layouts—his rear room being smaller than yours and around where your wall is, there is a beam running across my kitchen which suggests our walls are not structurally the same. 

...

I've never met a builder who was also a structural engineer, so although they may be a "building professional" it doesn't mean they have any qualification to start advising on structural engineering.  Being a 'registered' Master Builder also isn't a structural engineering qualification - and the FMB might be interested to hear if one of their members was actually using their membership to imply otherwise (vs the neigbour exagerating their advice) and putting a structural engineering opinion 'in writing'.

It is possible the beam in the neighbour's kitchen is supporting your wall, but it needs proper checks rather than assumptions.  Your wall might be supported on structure which depends on both the beam and the neighbour's wall for support.  I.e. your wall could be built on joists which are supported by both.  The proper checks would involve taking accurate measurements and then uncovering the structure below your wall to see what it is supported by.

The focus on the room size and kitchen beam in the neighbour's note also suggests the only thing the 'building professionals' were thinking about is whether his wall is supporting yours.  But that shouldn't be the only consideration - his crosswall may be providing lateral support to the external wall(s).  A structural engineer would look at all the walls in that part of the building and consider whether they have sufficient stability to cope without any lateral support being provided by the wall being removed.  Just a glance at the plan with the odd doglegs in the walls suggests there is a history to this structure which needs to be fully understood before removing parts of it.

It won't make you popular with the neighbour, but if they are being that intransigent you might want to consider contacting your local council's building control team and ask them for advice.  They have a regulatory function, and also a responsibility for dealing with dangerous structures.  If you explain that you think the wall the neighbour wants to remove may be structural, but they are refusing to use a structural engineer or having building control involved, then they might contact the neighbour to ask for more information.  Personally I'd look up the number to report dangerous structures (even though yours isn't [yet]) because the people answering that number are more likely to have a better understanding of the issues than the ones on the general enquiries line.  Make sure you ask for the name of the person you speak to, so whatever they advise you can go back to them if it all goes wrong.

weeg

I think 'my builder said it would be fine' is one of the most expensive sentences I know.  However, perhaps the builder he consulted is different.
The builder should be able to produce a certificate of professional indemnity and public liability insurance covering the proposed types of work, and obviously covering their professional advice regarding the structural requirements. Request to see these insurance certificates. And if they can't back up what they put in writing with their insurance then that letter is fit only as fire kindling.
And then remind them that a structural engineer's single inspection fee will be a very small proportion of the overall project costs and that they will have PI insurance.

pred02

Anyone? Thank you

ic

pred02 said:

Anyone? Thank you

Were the last five responses not good enough?