Misled about roof / roof space being included in flat

Myci85

How certain are you that you would getting planning permission to convert the roof space even if you owned it? As if you buy the roofspace and become liable for all roof maintenance and then can't actually do the conversion, you may be kicking yourself. 

blueberry_a7_b7

eddddy said:

Perhaps the lowest risk approach is as follows...

Find out how much premium/costs the other joint freeholders want for...

• 'Selling' the roof space
• Preparing a Deed of Variation for your lease (i.e. their solicitor's fee, etc)
• Possibly preparing Deeds of Variation for the other leases (to deal with maintenance/repair responsibilities etc)
• Giving consent for conversion of the roof space

For example, let's say the other joint freeholders want £70k for all the above.

So your overall offer remains at £435k - of which £365k goes to the flat seller, and £70k goes to the other joint freeholders.

And you instruct your solicitor to synchronise the 2 transactions - so that you don't end up with the flat, but no roof space (or vice versa).

Thanks, this structure is really helpful. This is the option we wanted to pursue but we don't believe the vendor wants to drag it out. I also don't have much confidence in them managing it sufficiently based on what we've discovered so far.

eddddy

blueberry_a7_b7 said:

Thanks, this structure is really helpful. This is the option we wanted to pursue but we don't believe the vendor wants to drag it out. I also don't have much confidence in them managing it sufficiently based on what we've discovered so far.

If you don't trust the seller to negotiate with the joint freeholders, you can do the negotiation yourself.


So do you mean you'll buy the flat, with the expectation that you can buy the roof space later? But, for example...

• There might be an awkward/disinterested joint freeholder who refuses to sell

• And your negotiating position will be much weaker after you've bought the flat. (Especially if one or more of the joint freeholders sees this as an opportunity to milk you for every penny they can.)

Before buying, you can say to the joint freeholders "I'm prepared to pay £x for the roof space. If you don't accept it, I'll walk away, and you might not find anyone else interested in buying the roof space."

Once you've bought the flat, you don't have the threat of walking away, if they ask for a silly price or silly terms.

blueberry_a7_b7

eddddy said:

blueberry_a7_b7 said:

Thanks, this structure is really helpful. This is the option we wanted to pursue but we don't believe the vendor wants to drag it out. I also don't have much confidence in them managing it sufficiently based on what we've discovered so far.

If you don't trust the seller to negotiate with the joint freeholders, you can do the negotiation yourself.


So do you mean you'll buy the flat, with the expectation that you can buy the roof space later? But, for example...

• There might be an awkward/disinterested joint freeholder who refuses to sell

• And your negotiating position will be much weaker after you've bought the flat. (Especially if one or more of the joint freeholders sees this as an opportunity to milk you for every penny they can.)

Before buying, you can say to the joint freeholders "I'm prepared to pay £x for the roof space. If you don't accept it, I'll walk away, and you might not find anyone else interested in buying the roof space."

Once you've bought the flat, you don't have the threat of walking away, if they ask for a silly price or silly terms.

We ended up reducing our offer to the tune of the value we placed on the roof / roof space.

The vendors have gone to the other freeholders and obtained a signed letter that they give me permission to use the roof space and are open to this being reflected in everyone's leases.

However:
1) They have not secured a legally binding agreement for the roof space, let alone the roof (e.g. deed of variation)
2) They have not confirmed who will need to cover the legal costs of these amendments (e.g. vendor, all current freeholders or us)
3) They have not stated they agree to us using the space to extend (pending other regulatory requirements)
4) They have not explicitly stated they will not ask for a premium for the update to the leases

Am I right in thinking that this doesn't quite wash in the way we expected it to (as highlighted in my OP and responses) and that we can still push back here?

One I'll be raising with my solicitor but wanted to get a general sense check here too.

theartfullodger

blueberry_a7_b7 said:

eddddy said:

blueberry_a7_b7 said:

Thanks, this structure is really helpful. This is the option we wanted to pursue but we don't believe the vendor wants to drag it out. I also don't have much confidence in them managing it sufficiently based on what we've discovered so far.

If you don't trust the seller to negotiate with the joint freeholders, you can do the negotiation yourself.


So do you mean you'll buy the flat, with the expectation that you can buy the roof space later? But, for example...

• There might be an awkward/disinterested joint freeholder who refuses to sell

• And your negotiating position will be much weaker after you've bought the flat. (Especially if one or more of the joint freeholders sees this as an opportunity to milk you for every penny they can.)

Before buying, you can say to the joint freeholders "I'm prepared to pay £x for the roof space. If you don't accept it, I'll walk away, and you might not find anyone else interested in buying the roof space."

Once you've bought the flat, you don't have the threat of walking away, if they ask for a silly price or silly terms.

We ended up reducing our offer to the tune of the value we placed on the roof / roof space.

The vendors have gone to the other freeholders and obtained a signed letter that they give me permission to use the roof space and are open to this being reflected in everyone's leases.

.....

Yes, but it still won;t be "your" space,, nor be clear about who's responsibility is say modifications, electrical cables etc etc etc

My son wanted similar in his ex-council block.  Ended up b=v complicated negotiation & paying 10;s of thousands forr permission.  but they now have much bigger flat (but paid even more to builders to have the work done.. 

PS Fire escape etc etc an issue

NameUnavailable

A letter giving you permission to use the space? I guess that permission could be withdrawn at any time, or if someone moves out a new person might object and want to enforce the terms of the lease. The permission is probably 'we don't mind you storing some boxes in the loft' and not 'we're fine for you to convert the loft into another bedroom'.

If the loft space is really important to you I think you will have to look for another property as it sounds like the vendor isn't going to drop their price and the work/time/costs involved in negotiating new leases with everyone will be prohibitive.

ChirpyChicken

Neville Chamberlin came back with a letter of agreement to.....

blueberry_a7_b7

theartfullodger said:

blueberry_a7_b7 said:

eddddy said:

blueberry_a7_b7 said:

Thanks, this structure is really helpful. This is the option we wanted to pursue but we don't believe the vendor wants to drag it out. I also don't have much confidence in them managing it sufficiently based on what we've discovered so far.

If you don't trust the seller to negotiate with the joint freeholders, you can do the negotiation yourself.


So do you mean you'll buy the flat, with the expectation that you can buy the roof space later? But, for example...

• There might be an awkward/disinterested joint freeholder who refuses to sell

• And your negotiating position will be much weaker after you've bought the flat. (Especially if one or more of the joint freeholders sees this as an opportunity to milk you for every penny they can.)

Before buying, you can say to the joint freeholders "I'm prepared to pay £x for the roof space. If you don't accept it, I'll walk away, and you might not find anyone else interested in buying the roof space."

Once you've bought the flat, you don't have the threat of walking away, if they ask for a silly price or silly terms.

We ended up reducing our offer to the tune of the value we placed on the roof / roof space.

The vendors have gone to the other freeholders and obtained a signed letter that they give me permission to use the roof space and are open to this being reflected in everyone's leases.

.....

Yes, but it still won;t be "your" space,, nor be clear about who's responsibility is say modifications, electrical cables etc etc etc

My son wanted similar in his ex-council block.  Ended up b=v complicated negotiation & paying 10;s of thousands forr permission.  but they now have much bigger flat (but paid even more to builders to have the work done.. 

PS Fire escape etc etc an issue

NameUnavailable said:

A letter giving you permission to use the space? I guess that permission could be withdrawn at any time, or if someone moves out a new person might object and want to enforce the terms of the lease. The permission is probably 'we don't mind you storing some boxes in the loft' and not 'we're fine for you to convert the loft into another bedroom'.

If the loft space is really important to you I think you will have to look for another property as it sounds like the vendor isn't going to drop their price and the work/time/costs involved in negotiating new leases with everyone will be prohibitive.

Yep you're both right, that's the conclusion I've come to too

The letter basically says: You can exclusively use the loft space. Also, we're open to taking steps to agree to this roofspace legally being yours.

But ultimately, it's not legally binding and they could renege once we approach them post-purchase and then ask us for a premium.

ChirpyChicken said:

Neville Chamberlin came back with a letter of agreement to.....

Made me laugh out loud!

i_like_cats

At £435k for 120sqm, this flat sounds like it’s already cheap on a ppsqm basis.     Friends of mine recently paid £360k for a 60-sqm doer-upper in zone 3.

Loft conversions probably aren’t cost effective unless you’re living in a more central / prime location.  

With building costs of £70k+, you might ask why would anyone pay £500k for the extended flat, when they could instead buy a house for the same £500k?

Albermarle

i_like_cats said:

At £435k for 120sqm, this flat sounds like it’s already cheap on a ppsqm basis.     Friends of mine recently paid £360k for a 60-sqm doer-upper in zone 3.

Loft conversions probably aren’t cost effective unless you’re living in a more central / prime location.  

With building costs of £70k+, you might ask why would anyone pay £500k for the extended flat, when they could instead buy a house for the same £500k?

Also with loft conversions ( whether flats/houses/bungalows etc ) the shape/style/height of the roof, the footprint of the property and whether dormers are allowed, matter as to what the end result is like.
You could pay £60K and get a pretty small usable space, whilst in a not dissimilar property you could pay £80K and get a nice big double bedroom with ensuite. So much more worthwhile.