More flexible electric heaters

FreeBear

Gerry1 said:

@MalthouseMark @flashg67 Sorry, but you've both got the worst heating systems possible in the UK.

There are two heating systems that are worse than plain electric heaters - A wet system supplied from an electric boiler. A thermal store that can be recharged on cheap(er) night time electricity would be a little better. Then there is open fires (with or without a back boiler). With 80% of the heat disappearing up the chimney, grossly inefficient, and you are having to pull in cold air from outside unless you wish to suffer from carbon monoxide poisoning. Oh and then there is the pollution that needs to be taken in to account.

knightstyle said:

Don't forget you are paying for the heat that escapes from the house. A perfectly insulated house will not need any heating appart from the hot water.  So best to invest on insulating walls, loft and floor as this will save you money in the long run.

There are limits on what can be done to insulate a listed building - Whilst not impossible, it can take a lot of effort to get the local Conservation Officer on board which adds to the cost. That said, draught proofing, heavy insulated curtains, and secondary glazing will help without incurring the wrath of the CO.

Gerry1

@MalthouseMark Wiring changes for Quantums should be minimal.  Presumably the existing E7 spurs can be used again, and the 24h supply can be from a nearby 13A socket on the ring main?  If there's an E7 spur but no nearby 13A socket then as a workaround a Quantum can be wired and programmed to operate on a single supply.  But it's then imperative that you know exactly when your meter changes over, not merely when it's supposed to.  A neon indicator on the spur would be sensible, otherwise inaccurate 'shadowing' times could prove expensive.

You also need to consider what happens when the time comes to sell.  Most potential purchasers would run a mile when they find out the heating and hot water runs on cripplingly expensive daytime electricity...  it's likely to take longer and fetch a lower price.

MalthouseMark

danrv said:

The wiring would still be in place I would have thought. I had a similar situation a few years ago with my all electric property.

From memory there were two circuits, one went to all the heaters. They switched it over when the meter failed and was swapped. Electricians added some extra plug sockets too so goodness knows what is there.

To go E7 it would be all or nothing because I wouldn't want to run some of the heating on "non-storage" radiators (like we've got now) if we were paying the E7 daytime rates for them.

Question for those that know this stuff - if the storage heaters are good, is there any benefit in running them not on E7? i.e. just plumbing one in to the setup we've got and using that?

My guess is there would be little benefit and that most of the advantage comes simply from using E7.

Looking at the Heater Shop I see input wattages and output wattages for the Quantum and it seems there's a big difference between what you put in and what you get out. They don't show similar for the Rointe that we have installed so it's a little confusing to me.

MalthouseMark

Gerry1 said:

@MalthouseMark Wiring changes for Quantums should be minimal.  Presumably the existing E7 spurs can be used again, and the 24h supply can be from a nearby 13A socket on the ring main?  If there's an E7 spur but no nearby 13A socket then as a workaround a Quantum can be wired and programmed to operate on a single supply.  But it's then imperative that you know exactly when your meter changes over, not merely when it's supposed to.  A neon indicator on the spur would be sensible, otherwise inaccurate 'shadowing' times could prove expensive.

You also need to consider what happens when the time comes to sell.  Most potential purchasers would run a mile when they find out the heating and hot water runs on cripplingly expensive daytime electricity...  it's likely to take longer and fetch a lower price.

@Gerry1, the wiring is a mystery to me. We had an electrician do work. They added sockets, doubled up old single sockets and all sorts.

As for selling - the plan is that we only leave here in a box!  

QrizB

We are currently with Utility Warehouse Double Gold tariff and manage to run our home on about 10,000 kWh a year (rolling 12 month average)

In my region, UW Double Gold is near-as-darnit 25p/kWh. That's £2500 plus £200 standing charge.

For an E7 counterfactual, let's assign a notional split of 8000 kWh for heat (all at night rate) and 2000 kWh for everything else (all at day rate).

In my area, UW are offering "UW Fixed Saver 40":

Unit rate 36.661p per kWh
Economy7 unit rate 5.793p per kWh
Standing charge 57.683p per day
Tariff ends on Fixed until 31 January 2026

That would be £463 for heat and £733 for everything else, plus £200 standing charge. An annual saving of £1304.

Assuming £1000 per room to convert (ignoring all the sockets which have been switched in the home and cost of converting the wiring), we have, downstairs, bathroom, two bedrooms, one home office, and a hall heater, upstairs a hall heater and a large odd split-level room with three heaters in it. I’ll call that seven rooms for ease. Call it £7k to convert.

At £7k, with a £1300 saving you're looking at 5-6 years to pay back.

Updating a few key rooms for comfort (our bedroom, my office, and our lounge) and then, if we can afford it later, changing the hall, spare room, and bathroom, is more likely.

If these are the rooms you use the most, then four NSH - bedroom, office, two in lounge - will get you most of the benefit. The guest bedroom will be fine with the current heater, and bathrooms pretty much never need NSHs.

Four heaters is ~£4k. If you can save £1k a year with those, they'll payback in four years.

QrizB

MalthouseMark said:

Looking at the Heater Shop I see input wattages and output wattages for the Quantum and it seems there's a big difference between what you put in and what you get out.

Yes, they charge for seven hours then let their heat out over the next seventeen. So you might charge at 3kW but only get an average of 1.2kW out.

The thing with Dimplex Quantums and their ilk is that they're vey good at keeping the heat in when you don't need it, and letting it out when you do.

MalthouseMark said:

To go E7 it would be all or nothing because I wouldn't want to run some of the heating on "non-storage" radiators (like we've got now) if we were paying the E7 daytime rates for them.

It's quite normal to use NSHs in the regularly-occupied rooms like your lounge and office, but stick with direct electric heat in the less-used rooms. Simply because storage heaters are expensive to install and spare bedrooms etc. see low occupancy, so don't need to be kept fully warm all the time.

Gerry1

MalthouseMark said:
Question for those that know this stuff - if the storage heaters are good, is there any benefit in running them not on E7? i.e. just plumbing one in to the setup we've got and using that?
My guess is there would be little benefit and that most of the advantage comes simply from using E7.

Using storage heaters on expensive single rate would be crazy.  Like showering using bottles of Perrier.

MalthouseMark said:
Looking at the Heater Shop I see input wattages and output wattages for the Quantum and it seems there's a big difference between what you put in and what you get out. They don't show similar for the Rointe that we have installed so it's a little confusing to me.

You charge them at a high rate of knots for 7 hours.  Then it's released slowly as needed.

It's like filling your car at the petrol pump, it may charge up at 2400 litres per hour but use it at only 5 litres per hour when you're driving.

MalthouseMark

Thanks, all. That's given me some food for thought.

twopenny

Grade 1 or grade 2 listed?

There are certain circumstances when you can get secondary glazing.

But you could make a frame and attach clear plastic for the really cold spells and fit that behind the glass. As long as it's removable. Depending on where you are and if anyone notices but given how few staff there are I doubt it would be commented upon.

You can use things to block up any gaps, I found strips of cling film screwed into a 'sausage' and poked in the gaps with a knife to be the easiest and more efficient than the foam stuff and it doesn't show.

It doesn't solve the cost of the heating but it can make the house warmer for your money.

MalthouseMark

twopenny said:

Grade 1 or grade 2 listed?

@twopenny, we're grade 2. It's an old malthouse (hence my handle) which has been converted into a terrace of homes in the 70s. The interior is modern - all fitted during the conversion. It is quirky as a result.

Thankfully in the last few years we managed to get consent for slimline double glazing and replaced all the windows. They're sash windows and we've draftproofed fairly well both windows and the door (only one in the house). It's slimline so it's not perfect but it is a very notable improvement compared to what we had before. We use a couple of dehumidifiers a lot (I've got one whirring in the background at the moment) which tends to warm the room too, as a side benefit of keeping the humidity in check.