F1rst Parking - Refusing POPLA code and Debt Collectors

F1rst_Parking_Fanboy

Hi All, 

Edit: I've read the newbies thread, and understand what to do in those situations, but my last post received conflicting advice as to whether or not I'd win a POPLA appeal. I'm also unable to find a scenario for where e.g. signage states vehicle must be registered for entering a campus (as opposed to parking in a car park).

I recently posted about this NTK and was advised to try the POPLA appeal route and ignore any debt collector letters. I'll start a new because my last post missed a lot of context. 

I (as the registered keeper) received a NTK from F1rst Parking LLP at the University of Sussex.

Important information re Sussex University parking:

1) The driver was not parked in any of the multiple managed car parks on campus, but was simply on campus.

2) The photos provided in the NTK were taken by ANPR cameras located at the entry of campus, of the vehicle in motion i.e. they are not able to prove which car park the vehicle allegedly was in. The PCN only refers to the alleged car park as "the car park", with no specific location.

Order of events as follows:

- I sent F1rst parking a letter to appeal the NTK but they received it beyond the 28 days appeal window (online form was not possible as the original letter was misplaced containing the reference number, which is needed to appeal on their website).

- I have not revealed the driver and will not reveal.

- F1rst Parking sent me a final letter stating they refuse to send me a POPLA code as they received the letter beyond the 28 days, and have passed the charge over to debt collectors

- Letter received from DCBL debt collectors, demanding £130 (original PCN was £30/£60...) I have 14 days to pay.

Where I need help/advice:

Please assume all correspondence received from F1rst Parking complies with POFA terms.

1) Is it at all likely I can get a POPLA code? If so, how? Do I raise a complaint with POPLA?

2) Looking at the NTK (below), are there any grounds for a breach of POFA? Do I have grounds on the following?:
- The photos in the NTK are of the vehicle in motion, and not in a carpark
- They are unable to identify the carpark allegedly parked in
- The NTK does not invite the keeper to pay the charge as an alternative
 
3) The sign on campus states a parking charge will be issued for 'Not registering your vehicle's VRM' - Is this an auto win for them because the vehicle did not register?  Or does a POFA breach overwrite this for e.g. not stating the exact location of the alleged car park?

4) Please advise how best to deal with the debt collectors in my situation, do I stand a chance in court if I ignore them? If I lose, what's the likely additional court charges?

Really appreciate any advice from you all, please see below the NTK, final letter from f1rst parking, the debt collector letter and an image of the signage at the university. 

ChirpyChicken

All in the Newbies thread please follow it

F1rst_Parking_Fanboy

ChirpyChicken said:

All in the Newbies thread please follow it

Honestly I've spent hours reading, what I can't find is a scenario where the signage states a PCN will be issued for not registering the vehicle. As the vehicle was not registered, is this a win for them? Or Do they fail POFA by not stating exactly which car park the vehicle allegedly parked in? My previous post received conflicting replies on this, one saying I'd win a popla appeal, the other saying I wouldn't. 

Gr1pr

You redacted the dates, not helpful

1) extremely unlikely now its with the powerless debt collectors , you cannot complain to popla

2) no idea,  too many unnecessary redactions so impossible to advise 

3) the driver committed the alleged contravention,  nothing to do with POFA, POFA is about transferring liability from the driver to the keeper on relevant land 

4) you do not engage with powerless debt collectors at all, no contact,  post 4 in the newbies sticky thread in announcements near the top of the forum 

Plan A is always the best option 

A typical loss in court for a single pcn is around £212, assuming that the case gets to a courtroom and assuming that the Defendant loses and found liable 

F1rst_Parking_Fanboy

Gr1pr said:

You redacted the dates, not helpful

1) extremely unlikely now its with the powerless debt collectors , you cannot complain to popla

2) no idea,  too many unnecessary redactions so impossible to advise 

3) the driver committed the alleged contravention,  nothing to do with POFA, POFA is about transferring liability from the driver to the keeper on relevant land 

4) you do not engage with powerless debt collectors at all, no contact,  post 4 in the newbies sticky thread in announcements near the top of the forum 

Plan A is always the best option 

A typical loss in court for a single pcn is around £212, assuming that the case gets to a courtroom and assuming that the Defendant loses and found liable 

Appreciate the reply, just to clarify:

1) extremely unlikely now its with the powerless debt collectors , you cannot complain to popla

I've seen other posts on here advising to complain to popla when being refused a code, so you're saying that would be a waste of time?

2) no idea,  too many unnecessary redactions so impossible to advise 

Please assume that all correspondence was received in a timely manner from F1rst parking and DCBL.

I'm looking more for advice on any potential POFA breaches not limited to the timing of correspondence.
For example there's no invitation for the keeper to pay the charge.
Also, I've seen a successful POPLA appeal on here where the main winning point, was that the specific car park was not identified, just the area (there were 2 car parks). In my scenario there are at least 6 car parks on the campus.

3) the driver committed the alleged contravention,  nothing to do with POFA, POFA is about transferring liability from the driver to the keeper on relevant land 

But if the NTK was not POFA compliant, the charge dies surely. My question was more around not registering the vehicle, is that a winning point for them despite not identifying the specific carpark ..? 


4) you do not engage with powerless debt collectors at all, no contact,  post 4 in the newbies sticky thread in announcements near the top of the forum 

Thanks

Gr1pr

They were not referred to popla,  they were referred to the complaint links for the parking company and the relevant trade bodies 

Any complaints to popla are after a flawed appeal decision only 

We dont make assumptions,  we use the law to interpret the information,  if given by the apellant,  same as popla should,  assuming that the parking company is a BPA AOS member, timescales are merely one aspect,  one ingredient in the recipe 

The charge does not die until 6 years have passed in England and Wales, the Limitations Act 1980.   Pofa2012 is not mandatory and many companies dont bother with pofa at all, because they go after the driver,  or they make the assumption that the keeper was the driver and carry on pursuing them on that basis , as they might with you

Registering the vehicle is dependent on the contracts in place and the signage on site,  the signs formed the contract with the driver,  the alleged breach on the NTK PCN letter is their interpretation of the contravention 

On a side note,  we never recommend postal appeals

Car1980

You're at the DCBL stage now so not much point in complaining. Just wait for the DCB Legal letter of claim.

Interested to see what they put on the court claim because they're accusing you of two things and don't state which one. In theory the original PCN is completely invalid. They can't just claim money for a list of reasons, pick one yourself.

ChirpyChicken

Your scenario isn't relevant 

LDast

Unredact the dates!!!!!!!!!

However, the NtK does not fully comply with all the requirements of PoFA as there is no invitation for the keeper to pay the charge as required in paragraph 9(2)(e)(i).

This is a valid appeal (and defence) point, as courts and independent adjudicators should not rely on implied obligations instead of explicit compliance with statutory requirements.

Coupon-mad

ChirpyChicken said:

Your scenario isn't relevant 

Agreed. The important point that the OP is missing here, is that the facts don't matter.  They need to stop looking for "a case like mine".  Absolutely not needed!

A DCB Ltd £170 letter EXACTLY like that one is already shown in the pictures in the 4th post of the NEWBIES thread, where I beg people not to ask about those letters - please spare us from duplicate threads - for the precise reason that cases are all the same and nobody needs to waste their time on this, least of all the OP!

If there are 2 threads about this same bog standard PCN then we should ask the Forum Team to merge them. One thread, one case.

What the OP also needs to take on board is that the facts don't even matter (in most cases) at court claim stage!

DCB Legal always discontinue single PCN claims. A defendant could almost put a nursery rhyme in paragraph 3 of the Template Defence and would still win (no hearing needed) due to the discontinuance MO of DCB Legal.

KeithP

Coupon-mad said:

If there are 2 threads about this same bog standard PCN then we should ask the Forum Team to merge them. One thread, one case.

This is the OP's fourth thread, but the first three - including all the advice and guidance therein - have simply vanished.