Buying a house with Annexe - Council tax

youth_leader

Following with interest, I saw posts about this a few years ago when I'd sold my station with an annexe.  Our annexe had a kitchen/bathoom too, and was accessed through a separate front door, as well as our lounge (we locked from our side).  I've just checked and council tax is still a single 'D'.  

lincroft1710

youth_leader said:

Following with interest, I saw posts about this a few years ago when I'd sold my station with an annexe.  Our annexe had a kitchen/bathoom too, and was accessed through a separate front door, as well as our lounge (we locked from our side).  I've just checked and council tax is still a single 'D'.  

It may be that neither the council nor VOA are aware of the annexe rather than it was deliberately not banded.

Pat38493

lincroft1710 said:

If the annexe is self contained, i.e. has living room/bedroom, WC, facilities for preparation of food and for washing and has access other than through rooms of the main house, for CT purposes it is a separate dwelling and should have its own CT band. Not being able to be let out or sold separately has no bearing on this.


The situation seems unusual that the property is in Band B and there is no improvement indicator. I am wondering if it is just the annexe that is in Band B


The VOA will not officially advise on what needs to be done so that an annexe is no longer self contained, but if the kitchen element was removed and the walls all made good that should be sufficient, but I would suggest not doing anything until you have discussed it with the VOA


Before you decide to purchase make sure you can budget for a large CT increase

Both the owner and EA claim that the entire building is currently in band B (which is clearly wrong).

By the way, if I bought such a house, is there a legal duty on me, to report it or can I just wait to see what happens?  If the improvement indicator is set to "no" on the date we complete purchase of the property, does that mean they can't inspect it until we sell it or can they just say it was an admin error?

I'm curious as to why the separate entrance door would need to be removed if the kitchen is removed.  Surely this means that any house with a front and back door could suddenly be classified as two separate dwellings depending where bathrooms etc are located? 

Also was my post above correct that even if it was classified as separate dwelling, you would get a 50% discount if it was just being used as part of the main house or being used for free by a relative?

Further - what does the comments on the council website mean about there being an exemption if it's not occupied and planning prevents it from being rented out (class T)?  Does that mean it has to be completely empty (no furniture and nobody ever goes in there)?

(It also seems a bit unfair that it could be classified as 2 separate "houses" for council tax purposes, whilst simultaneously the same council prevents you from renting it out (not that we wanted to do so anyway) - feels like having cake and eating it).

Pat38493

lincroft1710 said:

youth_leader said:

Following with interest, I saw posts about this a few years ago when I'd sold my station with an annexe.  Our annexe had a kitchen/bathoom too, and was accessed through a separate front door, as well as our lounge (we locked from our side).  I've just checked and council tax is still a single 'D'.  

It may be that neither the council nor VOA are aware of the annexe rather than it was deliberately not banded.

But the council approved the planning permission for it - I have found the approval on their website with all the reports.  Do the planning dept not speak to the council tax dept?

Kim_13

subjecttocontract said:

Can't the Estate agent or current owners answer any of these questions ?

I don’t blame the OP for possibly thinking that the above would tell them what they wanted to hear in order to make a sale, rather than providing a correct answer. 

If there are likely to be two bills, you could offer accordingly and use the saving to make the changes needed to remove the liability on the annex.

Bookworm105

Baldytyke88 said:

Pat38493 said:

Would we need to rip out the kitchen from the annexe quickly after purchasing the house in order to avoid it?

I also found a link which says that if the planning permission prevents the annexe from being rented out, it cannot be charged council tax as a separate residence.  Is this correct?  If so I guess we would have to get our solicitor to check the exact planning permission that they had for it.

There is nothing about having 2 kitchens that makes it 2 houses for council tax purposes. A house can have numerous kitchens, rooms and bedrooms.

separate council tax bandings is based on an assessment of whether a dwelling is "self contained"
There is judgement involved in that, but it most certainly does include the question are there means of cooking and bathing in the dwelling. Annex with kitchen and bath = self contained and so potentially liable for its own CT banding (subject to other confitions)

lincroft1710

Pat38493 said:

lincroft1710 said:

If the annexe is self contained, i.e. has living room/bedroom, WC, facilities for preparation of food and for washing and has access other than through rooms of the main house, for CT purposes it is a separate dwelling and should have its own CT band. Not being able to be let out or sold separately has no bearing on this.


The situation seems unusual that the property is in Band B and there is no improvement indicator. I am wondering if it is just the annexe that is in Band B


The VOA will not officially advise on what needs to be done so that an annexe is no longer self contained, but if the kitchen element was removed and the walls all made good that should be sufficient, but I would suggest not doing anything until you have discussed it with the VOA


Before you decide to purchase make sure you can budget for a large CT increase

Both the owner and EA claim that the entire building is currently in band B (which is clearly wrong).

By the way, if I bought such a house, is there a legal duty on me, to report it or can I just wait to see what happens?  If the improvement indicator is set to "no" on the date we complete purchase of the property, does that mean they can't inspect it until we sell it or can they just say it was an admin error?

I'm curious as to why the separate entrance door would need to be removed if the kitchen is removed.  Surely this means that any house with a front and back door could suddenly be classified as two separate dwellings depending where bathrooms etc are located? 

Also was my post above correct that even if it was classified as separate dwelling, you would get a 50% discount if it was just being used as part of the main house or being used for free by a relative?

Further - what does the comments on the council website mean about there being an exemption if it's not occupied and planning prevents it from being rented out (class T)?  Does that mean it has to be completely empty (no furniture and nobody ever goes in there)?

(It also seems a bit unfair that it could be classified as 2 separate "houses" for council tax purposes, whilst simultaneously the same council prevents you from renting it out (not that we wanted to do so anyway) - feels like having cake and eating it).

There is no legal obligation to report apparent CT banding errors. However if you are in Wales, this could work against you as the correction of such errors can be backdated. If the VOA believe a band is incorrect they can correct this at any time.


As far as I am aware there is no requirement to remove any external or internal door if a second kitchen is removed.


I would suggest that you contact your own council about any discounts concerning the occupation of an annexe as rules change and some councils do not always post correct information. It is not an area of CT I dealt with.


The council do not decide if a property comprises 2 dwellings, the VOA does. Council planning departments impose such regulations to stop new dwellings being erected where such a dwelling would be in breach of planning legislation/policy. What is a dwelling for CT purposes won't necessarily be one for planning purposes. .

lincroft1710

Pat38493 said:

lincroft1710 said:

youth_leader said:

Following with interest, I saw posts about this a few years ago when I'd sold my station with an annexe.  Our annexe had a kitchen/bathoom too, and was accessed through a separate front door, as well as our lounge (we locked from our side).  I've just checked and council tax is still a single 'D'.  

It may be that neither the council nor VOA are aware of the annexe rather than it was deliberately not banded.

But the council approved the planning permission for it - I have found the approval on their website with all the reports.  Do the planning dept not speak to the council tax dept?

My reply was to youth_leader's post.


Planning wouldn't be interested in CT matters, but CT department would be interested in what happens in planning. From personal experience there is sometimes a failure in interdepartmental communication, but not very common these days 

Pat38493

lincroft1710 said:

Pat38493 said:

lincroft1710 said:

If the annexe is self contained, i.e. has living room/bedroom, WC, facilities for preparation of food and for washing and has access other than through rooms of the main house, for CT purposes it is a separate dwelling and should have its own CT band. Not being able to be let out or sold separately has no bearing on this.


The situation seems unusual that the property is in Band B and there is no improvement indicator. I am wondering if it is just the annexe that is in Band B


The VOA will not officially advise on what needs to be done so that an annexe is no longer self contained, but if the kitchen element was removed and the walls all made good that should be sufficient, but I would suggest not doing anything until you have discussed it with the VOA


Before you decide to purchase make sure you can budget for a large CT increase

Both the owner and EA claim that the entire building is currently in band B (which is clearly wrong).

By the way, if I bought such a house, is there a legal duty on me, to report it or can I just wait to see what happens?  If the improvement indicator is set to "no" on the date we complete purchase of the property, does that mean they can't inspect it until we sell it or can they just say it was an admin error?

I'm curious as to why the separate entrance door would need to be removed if the kitchen is removed.  Surely this means that any house with a front and back door could suddenly be classified as two separate dwellings depending where bathrooms etc are located? 

Also was my post above correct that even if it was classified as separate dwelling, you would get a 50% discount if it was just being used as part of the main house or being used for free by a relative?

Further - what does the comments on the council website mean about there being an exemption if it's not occupied and planning prevents it from being rented out (class T)?  Does that mean it has to be completely empty (no furniture and nobody ever goes in there)?

(It also seems a bit unfair that it could be classified as 2 separate "houses" for council tax purposes, whilst simultaneously the same council prevents you from renting it out (not that we wanted to do so anyway) - feels like having cake and eating it).

There is no legal obligation to report apparent CT banding errors. However if you are in Wales, this could work against you as the correction of such errors can be backdated. If the VOA believe a band is incorrect they can correct this at any time.


As far as I am aware there is no requirement to remove any external or internal door if a second kitchen is removed.


I would suggest that you contact your own council about any discounts concerning the occupation of an annexe as rules change and some councils do not always post correct information. It is not an area of CT I dealt with.


The council do not decide if a property comprises 2 dwellings, the VOA does. Council planning departments impose such regulations to stop new dwellings being erected where such a dwelling would be in breach of planning legislation/policy. What is a dwelling for CT purposes won't necessarily be one for planning purposes. .

So if in England, they cannot back date the council tax?  I found another old thread somewhere else about someone who received 9 years of backdated bills in a similar scenario, but maybe it was in Wales.

(this also begs the question of who is liable if the house was recently purchased from an different owner (and even further if the person who lived in the Annexe before it was classified as a separate dwelling, was a relative of the prior owner who has died in the meantime).

lincroft1710

A band increase cannot be backdated in England. A dwelling omitted from the Valuation List in error can be backdated. I'm ex VOA and have backdated at least three such omissions (one by 7 years). Omitted annexes are not backdated.