JD Parking / Euro Car Parks Parking Charge Notices

munaafg

Hi all

I wanted to start a thread for some advice on some recent PCNs I've received.

I have read the Newbies thread (too late for the first one), and want to summarise the below for advice.  I've read countless threads and seen how helpful this community has been to individuals so looking for some advice specific to mine.

I have a leased car from VW and both notices have been sent by VW to me as a NTK / transferred ownership to contact myself.

1. JD Parking
I received a parking charge notice for 6th January
Contravention 'Failed to pay and Display'

I have a dash camera/personal black box in my vehicle, and I have the entire video footage of me arriving and departing with timestamps.

I arrived at 18.41.02 and left at 18.47.10 - they are saying that I overstayed the 5 minute stay.
I tried to pay at the machine, but the meter was not functioning/did not register or light up etc - I spent a good minute there trying to get it to work - all on video from my dash cam, meaning I returned to my vehicle around 18.42:30.  I then looked online incase there was an app to pay via and could not find anything. 

The pictures they have sent me of the alleged breach are from an individual who had a phone/tablet (I can see them in my dash cam footage) with timestamps.  Not ANPR technology.

I appealed by JD parkings online process, but before I read the newbies guide and stupidly put myself as the driver which I now know was not the right step.  I provided screenshot evidence from my dash cam of my arrival and timestamp, me at the meter with timestamp, me back in the car with timestamp, and finally myself leaving with timestamp.

Now they rejected (of course) my appeal, and as I've listed myself as the driver I am not sure if I should just pay or appeal to IAS or just not reply and see if they take me to court.

But the bits that I am wondering if I have grounds on are more technical for appeal to IAS/court?

The pictures they sent, with a date/time from the device the officer used show my vehicle in the bay at 18:39:33 with my car locked and empty which meant that was while I left the car to attempt to pay

The second picture they sent has a timestamp of 18:45:14 with me inside looking at the person taking the picture

The third picture they took has a timestamp of 18:45:29 again with me inside looking at the person.

The letter itself says the contravention time is 18:48 FWIW.

I have video evidence (already supplied to them and rejected) that my car arrived (parked) at 18:41:01 (and telematics data), so I could not possibly have been outside of my vehicle at 18:39:33 when the first picture was taken.  Lets assume that their device time has a 90s delta to my dash camera.

I left my vehicle on my dash camera timestamp to attempt to pay at 18:41:52 - so the earliest they could have taken a picture of my car without anyone inside and locked (as side windows go up) would be 18:41:52 - meaning the difference in their timestamp and mine would be 2:19s 

Their second picture with me inside, claims at 18:45:14 - but assuming their device was 2:19s behind mine, that would be 18:47:33 on my device - I have video evidence I was reversing from the bay/leaving at 18:47:10 

Is there any grounds on technical side I can lean in on if I appeal to IAS/what would you recommend here?

Happy to add images if its helpful here, just not sure.

2. Euro Car Parks
I received a 2nd notice today for an alleged 'overstay limit' on 4th Jan 2025 at St Georges Retail Park Leicester.  At this point I have not appealed to Euro Car Parks yet, but will ensure if I do I select Registered Keeper only. 

This is ANPR triggered, and logs 22:25:56 entry and 23:06:16 departure

I don't dispute these timestamps, however:

I entered this park to charge my Electric Vehicle in the EV charging spots during this entire time.

There were several other cars in EV charging spots also

Around 23:00 a security car came to the EV area and told each car (one by one, I was the last person) the car park is closing and we have to leave, we took our chargers out, put them in our boot and then promptly left. 

So far, I have sent an email today to St Georges Retail Park as the land owner as first step to see if they are able to get this cancelled, I have not take any other action or steps.

What should my next steps be there? This is not local for me and I've been unable to find any google maps pictures as the EV area is new since Dec 2023 and not updated to read signage etc.
I assume appeal by ECP as Registered Keeper, should I be using the template provided in Newbies thread in this appeal to ECP or keep it more generic that The car was used for EV charging, or only send the template/legal jargon to POPLA appeal if rejected?

Car1980

You're lending too much credence to "appealing". How many tickets do you think JD Parking voluntary cancel by genuinely upholding the appeals they receive? How would that square with avoiding going bust?

If it makes you feel better you can contact Euro on their website and tell them you dispute their invoice, were legitimately charging your car, will not be paying and look forward to their court claim. But don't go through any appeals process. You can type it in a letter and upload it on their site if you wish.

But after that do nothing and come back if you receive a Letter Before Action from DCB Legal, or BW Legal, or Gladstones.

Gr1pr

Ignore J D Parking,  if they tried a court claim based on 5 minutes consideration time,  I believe that it would be either discontinued or a judge would side with you

A recent court case in the news was Excel Parking trying to obtain nearly 2 grand from a lady, dropped by Excel Parking during the claim period,  before it went to court,  check news sites etc

As for ECP, complaining about the PCN to the retail park management company was the correct thing to do,  plan A 

The appeal to ECP as a keeper is if its not cancelled by day 26,  to give the plan A time to work 

If it went as far as a court claim via dcb legal,  it would be discontinued before the hearing 

Both companies expect prompt payment without fuss, not people who fight back

Definitely no paying 

munaafg

Thank you all, this is reassuring - I will stick with my guns and go no comms to JD parking from here 
Await response from Land owner and then appeal to ECB in a week or two if no reply and let them take to court.  I will share back if I receive anything else on this thread for completeness for anyone that searches and comes across my post

munaafg

No reply so far from the land owner, in terms of the initial appeal to ECP - should I be using the blue template from NEWBIES thread, or should I just appeal as Registered Keeper explaining that the premises were used for EV charging and escorted out by security at closure time?

I am a bit confused as the NEWBIES guide doesn't explicitly say to use the blue template under BPA members postal PCN and my car is a lease from VW.  VW have mailed me the PCN with a 'Third party authorisation letter' that gives ECP authorisation to contact me directly on PCN matter.

Postal PCN from a BPA or IPC member ? (i.e. with no mention of any windscreen ticket):

A postal PCN or NTK might be headed up 'Reminder' or 'Charge Notice' or it may even be a letter from a debt collector - it is your Notice to Keeper, in effect, if it's the first letter to arrive. No need to wait, appeal online as registered keeper (or as ''hirer/lessee'' if that's the case, see * below re lease/hire cars).

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Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.

If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner.

Coupon-mad

No, use the company/lease car appeal that is given lower down in the first post of the NEWBIES thread. That is for the ECP one.

Then copy any NTH POPLA appeal. Search the forum and read a few. Copy. ECP will give up.

Ignore JD Parking because there's no appeal to the IAS worth trying, unless you want to waste their time and money, which some do. Sit tight. Do nothing except the below.

By going confidently into the 'ignore' stance, the only steps to take (because you MUST check every letter) are:

- Tell them if you move house within 6 years.

- Ignore the tedious £170 threatograms shown in pictures in the 4th post of the NEWBIES thread.

- Come back if you get a solicitor's LBC as per the 2nd post of the NEWBIES thread.

Nobody pays a penny and no hearing is even needed in most cases. Search the forum and read a few cases as they are easy to beat by waiting for a claim form - it is easier than appealing!

There is no risk AT ALL in defending a court claim. No CCJ. No bailiffs.  Whether one or both goes that far, the advice is the same.

But the ECP one is easy to see off at POPLA.

Can we keep this thread ONLY for the Euro Car Parks one now please or confusion will take us on tangents and we could end up misadvising you.

munaafg

Thank you Coupon-mad! 

let's keep this thread for ECP and ignore JD parking - agreed there

Just want to be sure of the steps, have spent a while reading posts and threads and want to sense check my steps are right.

ECP have sent notice to keeper to VW - who have transferred auth to contact myself (providing my details/address and hire dates of vehicle). I can upload this if its important?
Is NTK same as NTH? Your post mentions copy any NTH POPLA Appeal - but my letter says NTK.

From what I can see, ECP have sent a POFA compliant NTK - with the additional wording around to pass notice to driver (shown in pic 2) 

The lease/hire section of newbies thread links to three posts, it seems like the 2nd one from Edna is the one to use on the online appeal to ECP?

Is that right or should I use alanjuk? The only reason I wasn't sure about alanjuk is it refers to this - is this always applicable, I am not local to this PCN so can't confirm signage info.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

Do I not bother explaining the EV charging situation in the online ECP appeal at all?



Here is my draft from Ednas post

Should I be submitting this ASAP rather than waiting any longer?

Sorry I just want to triple check my understanding before submitting as this is all new to me and learning.

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Dear Sir/Madam,

Parking Charge Notice [0123456789]: Vehicle Registration [AA11ABC]

I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) issued to me by Euro Car Parks Ltd (“ECP”) as a Notice to Hirer. I confirm that as the hirer of this vehicle, I am its keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally challenge the validity of this PCN.

You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to invoke keeper liability for a Parking Charge. There are a number of reasons why ECP's Notice to Hirer did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 in particular.

Given that ECP has forfeited its right to keeper liability, please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge. Alternatively, should you choose to reject my challenge, please provide me with details of the Independent Appeals Service (POPLA), their contact details and a unique POPLA appeal reference so that I may escalate the matter to POPLA.

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.


Yours faithfully,

[Insert squiggle as signature]
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Coupon-mad

Have you received your own Notice addressed to you now? That pic looks like the one they'd have sent to the registered keeper (lease firm or fleet)?

munaafg

No, this was sent to VW who then forwarded on to myself a copy with a letter authorising transfer communication to myself, not directly named to me from ECP.
They provided Reg of car, my name/address and hire start/end dates, but to date I have not had a direct letter from ECP addressed to myself.

The ECP NTK in post above was sent to VW financial services as the address (covered by red block)

Coupon-mad

OK so appeal as hirer (not saying who was driving) attaching that snd pointing out they haven't sent you a Notice in your name yet.

DO NOT mention the POFA. Do not copy the template topping them off how to do a compliant NTH.

munaafg

Thanks coupon-mad, so just this in the ECP online appeal?

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I, the hirer/lessee, appeal this PCN xxxxxx as I have not received a notice in my name yet.

Please see attached Third Party Authorisation Letter dated 15/01/2025
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