"Manual Bed & SIPP" does this work?

masonic

GeoffTF said:

TheGreenFrog said:

aroominyork said:

masonic said:

hallmark said:

masonic said:

That looks ok to me. A shortcut would be to switch between two different ETCs if an equally good alternative exists (might be more relevant for gold).

I did consider this but I get hazy on exactly what HMRC considers to be a "different enough" investment.  This might just be that I don't understand the subject well enough.......

The ISIN code needs to be different.

Which would mean you can switch between Acc and Inc versions of the same fund?

I believe that yes that avoids being caught.  Maybe post on tax forum.

I read somewhere that it works if the fund manager does it for you but not if you do it yourself. Check the rules very carefully.

It's the other way around. If in doubt, using equivalent funds from different fund houses removes the possibility of the fund manager doing it.

TheGreenFrog

masonic said:

GeoffTF said:

TheGreenFrog said:

aroominyork said:

masonic said:

hallmark said:

masonic said:

That looks ok to me. A shortcut would be to switch between two different ETCs if an equally good alternative exists (might be more relevant for gold).

I did consider this but I get hazy on exactly what HMRC considers to be a "different enough" investment.  This might just be that I don't understand the subject well enough.......

The ISIN code needs to be different.

Which would mean you can switch between Acc and Inc versions of the same fund?

I believe that yes that avoids being caught.  Maybe post on tax forum.

I read somewhere that it works if the fund manager does it for you but not if you do it yourself. Check the rules very carefully.

It's the other way around. If in doubt, using equivalent funds from different fund houses removes the possibility of the fund manager doing it.

Yes - always sell and buy and keep the contract notes!

ColdIron

aroominyork said:

masonic said:

hallmark said:

masonic said:

That looks ok to me. A shortcut would be to switch between two different ETCs if an equally good alternative exists (might be more relevant for gold).

I did consider this but I get hazy on exactly what HMRC considers to be a "different enough" investment.  This might just be that I don't understand the subject well enough.......

The ISIN code needs to be different.

Which would mean you can switch between Acc and Inc versions of the same fund?

A switch by the fund house would not be a disposal as it's not a change of asset class (e.g. via cash)

A well known recent (ish) example was the switch from dirty/bundled fund classes to clean/unbundled classes after the Retail Distribution Review

GeoffTF

masonic said:

GeoffTF said:

TheGreenFrog said:

aroominyork said:

masonic said:

hallmark said:

masonic said:

That looks ok to me. A shortcut would be to switch between two different ETCs if an equally good alternative exists (might be more relevant for gold).

I did consider this but I get hazy on exactly what HMRC considers to be a "different enough" investment.  This might just be that I don't understand the subject well enough.......

The ISIN code needs to be different.

Which would mean you can switch between Acc and Inc versions of the same fund?

I believe that yes that avoids being caught.  Maybe post on tax forum.

I read somewhere that it works if the fund manager does it for you but not if you do it yourself. Check the rules very carefully.

It's the other way around. If in doubt, using equivalent funds from different fund houses removes the possibility of the fund manager doing it.

Yes, you are right. Nonetheless, check.

hallmark

hallmark said:

Like many here (I suspect) I'm thinking about CGT for the first time. Never needed to before.

I have a GIA that contains 10K purchase each of BCOG and gold, silver, and platinum ETCs (all bought in a previous tax year)

Currently they're worth approx 10k (BCOG) 15k (Gold) 13k (Silver) & 9k (Platinum).

As these are my only investments not in an ISA/SIPP I'm currently musing the easiest way to realise a £3k capital gain this tax year

I don't actually want to change any of these investments, just realise £3k of the capital gain, so my proposal is:

Sell all the Silver ETC (for the sake of simplicity lets say it's worth exactly £13k at the time I sell)

Simultaneously use £13k of dry powder in my SIPP (I have that) to buy £13k of the same ETC

Wait 30 days then re-use the £13k cash in my GIA to repurchase the same ETC & simultaneously sell that ETC from my SIPP

I believe that realises a £3k gain and meets the rules, does that sound OK or any flaws?

Obviously the value of silver might rise or fall during the 30 days so I might end up with more or less units for my £13k but I can't control that part.

thanks for any help........

I did this in the end (I toyed with selling and rebuying a similar but different silver ETF but was getting to confused on the different scenarios regarding what the silver price did in the meantime...)

Anyway, here's the details of my transaction:

Trade Date/Time 23/01/25 at 15:04:16

Settlement Date 27/01/2025

Can anybody confirm the earliest I can rebuy to meet the 30-day rule i.e. so this DOES count as a taxable gain?

AFAIK it's (a) based on Settlement date and (b) 30 calendar days, not working days

On that basis I THINK the first day I could rebuy is on 27th Feb in order to be past the 30 days.

But I'm not totally certain. 

Thanks for any help

wmb194

hallmark said:

hallmark said:

Like many here (I suspect) I'm thinking about CGT for the first time. Never needed to before.

I have a GIA that contains 10K purchase each of BCOG and gold, silver, and platinum ETCs (all bought in a previous tax year)

Currently they're worth approx 10k (BCOG) 15k (Gold) 13k (Silver) & 9k (Platinum).

As these are my only investments not in an ISA/SIPP I'm currently musing the easiest way to realise a £3k capital gain this tax year

I don't actually want to change any of these investments, just realise £3k of the capital gain, so my proposal is:

Sell all the Silver ETC (for the sake of simplicity lets say it's worth exactly £13k at the time I sell)

Simultaneously use £13k of dry powder in my SIPP (I have that) to buy £13k of the same ETC

Wait 30 days then re-use the £13k cash in my GIA to repurchase the same ETC & simultaneously sell that ETC from my SIPP

I believe that realises a £3k gain and meets the rules, does that sound OK or any flaws?

Obviously the value of silver might rise or fall during the 30 days so I might end up with more or less units for my £13k but I can't control that part.

thanks for any help........

I did this in the end (I toyed with selling and rebuying a similar but different silver ETF but was getting to confused on the different scenarios regarding what the silver price did in the meantime...)

Anyway, here's the details of my transaction:

Trade Date/Time 23/01/25 at 15:04:16

Settlement Date 27/01/2025

Can anybody confirm the earliest I can rebuy to meet the 30-day rule i.e. so this DOES count as a taxable gain?

AFAIK it's (a) based on Settlement date and (b) 30 calendar days, not working days

On that basis I THINK the first day I could rebuy is on 27th Feb in order to be past the 30 days.

But I'm not totally certain. 

Thanks for any help

No, you go from the trade date. That's always the date that counts for CGT. I'm sure it's calendar days as well but I'm struggling to find that on an HMRC page, they just say, "30 days."

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5230364/30-day-rule-for-b-b-exactly-30x24-hours

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/shares-and-capital-gains-tax-hs284-self-assessment-helpsheet/hs284-shares-and-capital-gains-tax-2021

hallmark

Ah wouldn't have realised that, so I think the first day would be Monday 24th.