RTS signal ceasing

brianposter

matt_drummer said:

brianposter said:

Presumably it is a very high powered signal for a few seconds so it does not use that much electricity. Given that they are apparently proposing to shut down a lot of BBC broadcasting it seems surprising that they cannot repurpose some existing equipment.

To what end?

Just so people can continue using outdated equipment?

It's not necessary, the world has moved on.

Is that not the slogan regularly used by Microsoft to persuade people to spend more money on an inferior product ?

brianposter

Qyburn said:

brianposter said:

Presumably it is a very high powered signal for a few seconds so it does not use that much electricity. Given that they are apparently proposing to shut down a lot of BBC broadcasting it seems surprising that they cannot repurpose some existing equipment.

How long do you think it takes to start up a 500kW valve powered radio transmitter? And what sort of other equipment do you think they might have lying around that would do the job in its place.

Presumably there is a modern substitute for those valves and there are other less powerful transmitters around. Given that these recent switchovers seem notable for their incompetence I was wondering how the decision was made in this particular case, and your earlier link provided an interesting insight.  .

Gerry1

QrizB said:

brianposter said:

Presumably it is a very high powered signal for a few seconds so it does not use that much electricity. Given that they are apparently proposing to shut down a lot of BBC broadcasting it seems surprising that they cannot repurpose some existing equipment.

The UK only has one national Long Wave broadcast transmitter, at Droitwich.

Hadn't realised that Scotland had suddenly done a UDI, or were the masts at Westerglen and Burghead both blown over by Storm Darragh?

Gerry1

brianposter said:

Presumably it is a very high powered signal for a few seconds so it does not use that much electricity.

Nope.  It's phase modulation of the existing Radio 4 carrier, 'Wavelength Wobbling' if you prefer, so it's there 24/7 except for occasional planned maintenance such as  greasing the guy wires.

It's a myth that there's one big Switch On shoutout around midnight and a Switch Off around breakfast time, it doesn’t work like that.  Essentially it refreshes a carousel of switching times stored in the RTS.  Most domestic users are on static timings and wouldn’t notice any difference if they still had an RTS unit after LW switch off.  It would be similar to  not synchronising your digital watch to the pips, it wouldn't stop telling the time and night wouldn't suddenly become day.  It might drift a few minutes per year.

QrizB

Gerry1 said:

QrizB said:

brianposter said:

Presumably it is a very high powered signal for a few seconds so it does not use that much electricity. Given that they are apparently proposing to shut down a lot of BBC broadcasting it seems surprising that they cannot repurpose some existing equipment.

The UK only has one national Long Wave broadcast transmitter, at Droitwich.

Hadn't realised that Scotland had suddenly done a UDI, or were the masts at Westerglen and Burghead both blown over by Storm Darragh?

Not "national" to the UK, and much lower power.

And if you know they exist, you probably know that already.

brianposter

Gerry1 said:

brianposter said:

Presumably it is a very high powered signal for a few seconds so it does not use that much electricity.

Nope.  It's phase modulation of the existing Radio 4 carrier, 'Wavelength Wobbling' if you prefer, so it's there 24/7 except for occasional planned maintenance such as  greasing the guy wires.

It's a myth that there's one big Switch On shoutout around midnight and a Switch Off around breakfast time, it doesn’t work like that.  Essentially it refreshes a carousel of switching times stored in the RTS.  Most domestic users are on static timings and wouldn’t notice any difference if they still had an RTS unit after LW switch off.  It would be similar to  not synchronising your digital watch to the pips, it wouldn't stop telling the time and night wouldn't suddenly become day.  It might drift a few minutes per year.

Does that mean that if the energy companies kept the appropriate tariffs people could continue with their existing equipment for the next ten years ?

Spoonie_Turtle

brianposter said:

Gerry1 said:

brianposter said:

Presumably it is a very high powered signal for a few seconds so it does not use that much electricity.

Nope.  It's phase modulation of the existing Radio 4 carrier, 'Wavelength Wobbling' if you prefer, so it's there 24/7 except for occasional planned maintenance such as  greasing the guy wires.

It's a myth that there's one big Switch On shoutout around midnight and a Switch Off around breakfast time, it doesn’t work like that.  Essentially it refreshes a carousel of switching times stored in the RTS.  Most domestic users are on static timings and wouldn’t notice any difference if they still had an RTS unit after LW switch off.  It would be similar to  not synchronising your digital watch to the pips, it wouldn't stop telling the time and night wouldn't suddenly become day.  It might drift a few minutes per year.

Does that mean that if the energy companies kept the appropriate tariffs people could continue with their existing equipment for the next ten years ?

RTS considerations aside, meters have a certification period, after which they need to be replaced or recertified.  Currently the only option is replacement, with smart meters.  Many RTS systems use old meters that are nearing - or, like in an example we've seen on this board within the last couple of days, already beyond - the end of their certification periods.

There is a separate issue of suppliers not supporting legacy tariffs on smart meters, but that is a business decision, not one forced upon them by any technological limitations.  (Smart meters provide usage data that can enable billing at a different rate up to every 30 mins, so providing 2 or 3 off-peak periods as some legacy tariffs do is well within their capability!)

QrizB

Spoonie_Turtle said:

There is a separate issue of suppliers not supporting legacy tariffs on smart meters, but that is a business decision, not one forced upon them by any technological limitations.  (Smart meters provide usage data that can enable billing at a different rate up to every 30 mins, so providing 2 or 3 off-peak periods as some legacy tariffs do is well within their capability!)

Although for tariffs where there are two rates in force simultaneously (like the tariff in this recent thread) you'd need two separate smart meters, or an as-yet-not-invented twin-supply smart meter.

Spoonie_Turtle

QrizB said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

There is a separate issue of suppliers not supporting legacy tariffs on smart meters, but that is a business decision, not one forced upon them by any technological limitations.  (Smart meters provide usage data that can enable billing at a different rate up to every 30 mins, so providing 2 or 3 off-peak periods as some legacy tariffs do is well within their capability!)

Although for tariffs where there are two rates in force simultaneously (like the tariff in this recent thread) you'd need two separate smart meters, or an as-yet-not-invented twin-supply smart meter.

True, although as I understand it that kind of setup already has two separate meters for the two MPANs, so if they replace the existing meters for smarts it's not impossible?  Just they wouldn't both be able to connect to a single IHD.  I'd have thought if they can handle billing two MPANs then two smart meters wouldn't make much difference on their end.  [As usual, aware I could be wrong and always happy to be corrected.]

Scot_39

QrizB said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

There is a separate issue of suppliers not supporting legacy tariffs on smart meters, but that is a business decision, not one forced upon them by any technological limitations.  (Smart meters provide usage data that can enable billing at a different rate up to every 30 mins, so providing 2 or 3 off-peak periods as some legacy tariffs do is well within their capability!)

Although for tariffs where there are two rates in force simultaneously (like the tariff in this recent thread) you'd need two separate smart meters, or an as-yet-not-invented twin-supply smart meter.

Such smart meters did exist.

Like secure liberty 7 port listed several legacy varns including thtc as a supported tariff. 

But if suppliers don't support they aren't going to build them.

And Ofgem never compelled suppliers to do so.