Can I be forced to do overtime? (tomorrow)

laurz121

Short version:
Can my maanger force me to do overtime due to his (admitted) mistake with rotas?

Long version:
I work night's in a shop (ie shelf stacking) and my manager has made mistakes with our rota meaning we are being forced to do overtime which we refuse to do. The problem is that I am getting very little advice from other managers/HR.

We had asked our manager to sort out our christmas rota since october and in the first week in december he showed us one which I pointed out was wrong because bank holidays had been given to people who hadnt earned them (as per our contract) and taken from those that had, he accepted this and so set about changing the rota. A week later he gave us a new version which still had the exact same mistake in it so again we pointed it out and were told basically tough. A week later he admitted his mistake again and changed the rota (this was 50 minutes before we were due to go home on our last shift).

During our days off before coming back on the saturday just gone we noticed that for this week (sunday 30th december to saturday 5th January) some of us were rota'd in for 50 hours. Well physically in for 30 and 20 hours paid days off for 31st and 1st as per contract. While others were only doing 20 hours (and no paid days off for 31st/1st as they havent earnt them by working the days previously), they were also taking 10 hours unpaid day off which still takes them only to 30 hours.

As you can see it is clear that we are working one of their days (10 hours) but we don't want to do this. We pointed it out on saturday (first opportunity) and the manager who wasn't working was phoned at home, he basically said tough. It's too late to change it so we'll have to work them as overtime and the others can have a day extra off.

Spoke to other maangers the next morning at work who said they are sure we cant be forced to work extra and advised us ringing manager (we explained he'd already ignored us) but tried contacting him anyway but the number we had been given was wrong. Contacted HR today to ask their advice which was "we can't help you, speak to your manager". This was after explaining that he refused to address the issue but they gave me his number again to phone which turns out to still be invalid.

Can anyone advise us on whether we can be forced to work these extra days? Everybody has admitted that it is his mistake and that it is overtime, we will have done our contracted hours plus more and that other people are doing less than their contracted hours. we are due to be working tomorrow night and saturday night (plus other nights leading off saturday which are next week) and on wednesday night there ARE other people working, on saturday it is just us.

We think the answer is simple, don't work wednesday and only work saturday but are we allowed to just not go in one day provided we do our 39 hours this week? We have one day left to work according to our contract yet are scheduled to work 2 days by our manager who admits it is a mistake. Can we just pick one of these two days not to work? We have already told our supervisor that we will only work 1.

thank you

stazi

Easy for me to offer advice, but I would work it - just to avoid the hassle/confrontation with your manager as your HR don't want to know.
Remind him that you helped HIM out of a problem, and maybe he owe's you a future favour?

laurz121

thanks for the reply
The problem is that we always seem to be helping him out and never getting anything in return. Funnily enough the same problem occured last christmas with us getting told on christmas eve that we would have to work an extra day on the 27th and we did it, funnily enough its the same people that he's expecting to work extra again and the same people that he has denied holidays to in the past only to allow others to take them.

So really it is about us not wanting to be pushed around by him and not allowing him to think he controls us. The only way to do that is to not bend over backwards for him every time

jay_cee_2

that's a tough one... your manager could make your life a misery at work in the future if you don't help them out. sounds like the manager is not capable of doing their job, I've met far to many of these in the past. And regularly lost my temper due to their inadequacies.
I would personally work it and count the money.

On another note, years ago I worked part time at Sports Division, later became JJB Sports. This place really tried to take the proverbial. Saying we had to be there 15mins before for a briefing and then stay upto 30mins after to tidy up....
I took a stand against this, stating that was not in our contracts and that the workers in the relevant departments should be responsible for keeping that area in a respectable appearance. Suffice to say, I wasn't the most popular member of staff with the management, however, I didn't want to be taken advantage of like many of these staff were. There was an incident on New Years Eve which springs to mind, the Regional Manger (read Clown), was in the store, wanting it looking spotless... Well, after 5minutes of the store being closed I pointed to my area and said, it is clean, I am going. He said no, you will help the others, to which i replied, did they help me keep my department clean and help me? no. and i left, i knew he would not fire me as i skills that nobody else in the shop had, I was working on the bike department, and was a specialist.

Anyway, sorry to waffle on, but be careful, if you refuse the manager may watch you like a hawk and try anything to get rid of you in the future.

Jon

apples1

i would work it and then raise a formal grievance (following your company's grievenace) procedure afterwards. Suggest your colleagues in the same boat do the same. Use last year in your complaint as well as this year to prove it's not just a one off.

jay_cee_2

apples1 wrote: »

i would work it and then raise a formal grievance (following your company's grievenace) procedure afterwards. Suggest your colleagues in the same boat do the same. Use last year in your complaint as well as this year to prove it's not just a one off.

yes, thats a good idea, get as many of you as possible to do this.

alanobrien

It also depends on your employment contract, for instance mine incudes a clause that "reasonable" overtime may be required to be worked from time to time in the interests of the business. Quite what "reasonable" means is anyone's guess but its never been a question for me anyway.

The main point being if its in your contract of employment then you may be expected to help out (in the interests of the business) even though the manager messed up.

safesound

Personally I'd approach the people who are being given the less hours. Surely they will miss the hours in their pay and would appreciate you offering them the hours to make it upto their normal pay? I know in the supermarket I work if you cant do hours they give you, you can get someone whose willing to cover them for you (kinda like I dont care who does it so long as someone does).

apples1

alanobrien wrote: »

It also depends on your employment contract, for instance mine incudes a clause that "reasonable" overtime may be required to be worked from time to time in the interests of the business. Quite what "reasonable" means is anyone's guess but its never been a question for me anyway.

The main point being if its in your contract of employment then you may be expected to help out (in the interests of the business) even though the manager messed up.

Nobody could argue that the OP was given "reasonable" notice and the manager can't use the "mistake" excuse two years running AND when the employees pointed out the mistake in good time for the issue to be resolved.

Also whilst you could ask the other employees if they would like the extra hours, you can't change the rota or guarantee they would turn up to work "your" hours. If the others would have liked them you could mention this in your grievance letter as it only adds to making the manager look unreasonable.

As I said I would do the hours in a mature way with grace and then raise a grievance in a non agressive but factual manner. He is your boss. You probably are required in your contract to "meet the needs of the business" but that does not mean you can be treated unfairly.

laurz121

thanks for the replies everyone.
Just to update you, we finally managed to get in touch with our maanger and he has now agreed to let us just work one day which is all we wanted in the first place so result.

A few clarifacations on the points that a few people raised (to help anybody else in a similar situation in the future). We work in basically two groups, one group works one set of days, the other works the others and we always do the same days each week so the only time we ever see a rota is at christmas, so generally speaking hours arent allocated to anyone.

The reason that the other group were given less hours is because they wanted to take them unpaid to give them a longer christmas break and hour maanger (accidentally according to him) gave all of their hours to us which we didnt want so we couldnt swap with them, they were the ones who requested the day off.

I'm not sure what would be classed as a reasonable reason for compulsary overtime but it would be interesting if anyone knew whether this kind of reason (ie to cover for other employees who have requested not to do their contracted hours) is sufficient although having checked my 'handbook' it would appear that I can be asked to do overtime in order to finish jobs/health and safety issues etc which means just at the end of my shift to make sure everything is safe and finished which we always do (Staying upto 40 minutes extra on some days).

anyway, it was sorted though I don't think he'll be happy lol. Nevermind, he never is anyway.
thanks a lot for all the advice

Luvly.cuppa.T

apples1 wrote: »

Also whilst you could ask the other employees if they would like the extra hours, you can't change the rota or guarantee they would turn up to work "your" hours.

Oh my, you have brought up a memory for me!

Many years ago when I was 17, working in a hotel restaurant as a waitress, I asked a co-worker to cover a shift for me as I wanted to attend a friend's 18th.
I ended up with a phone call, on the day that I had swapped my shift, to ask where I was and that if I didn't turn up in 15 minutes I would face some kind of disciplinary. So I went to work (it was just over the road) with a sour face, being 17 and missing a friends party was a big deal to me of course. I tried to work , but the feeling of I shouldn't be here and missing out on what I should have been doing kept eating at me, to the point where I came to blows with the 'new manager' that had been throwing her weight around.

I was a good worker, knew and did my job well and got on with everyone. I merely told the manager that I shouldn't be there and I really wasn't happy about it, and it wasn't good for anyone me being there. My work was suffering and in that kind of work it lets everyone down including customers. Just all round bad. I think what had actually started the 'conversation' was my lateness... and I got a rollocking for it. Of course I had to explain that X was supposed to be covering for me, but it turned out the guy that should have done my shift had gone out for the day and evening it seemed, with friends. (He lived at the hotel)

The manager was completely uncompassionate about the situation, no understanding at all in her bones and told me that any change to shifts had to go through her first. I think there had been difficulty trying to get hold of her as she was coming in new etc, and that rule had never been discussed before.

Anyways, due to her hardstanding and literally smiling in my face about you are at work get on with it, this is your shift do it type attitude, and me getting more and more upset and peed off with her by the minute she gave me the ultimatum if you leave now you will lose your job.

Well, I was in no real fit state to work that night as already explained, and the way she had talked to me how wound me up so much I couldn't work at that point, so I did the classic thing of 'you can stuff your job you miserable woman', threw down whatever it was in my hands and stormed off.

I then went to find the guy who should have covered my shift,who had just got back, yelled at him through tears 'you have lost me my job' , who apologised profusely as he completely forgot all about it and I went home.

I never did go to the party as I was so upset!! (and the party being a distance away too, time being latter then etc)

I then proceeded to get myself a job at the hotel where the heartless manager had previously left, explained why I had left honestly (said I came to blows with her) and they loved it, as they all hated her and were glad to see the back of her!!!

Funny how life goes sometimes.