Why is this not classed as fraud?

GortonLad

Hi Everyone, 

Sorry this sounds like a right moan! But I'd value some advice if possible...

I am posting as I really have no idea what to do next. In short, we paid (by bank transfer - big mistake and can't believe there is zero protection via this method) £9,000 for some kitchen units to be supplied in Nov 2023, after two excuses over a 6 month period as to why they had not been delivered I cancelled the order and requested a refund from the supplier. 

The supplier simply stated he could not afford to issue our refund, long story short after going through the small claims court (who have be totally unhelpful and really poor service), we agreed a payment plan via mediation, the supplier having made two payments (of an agreed 9) has defaulted for the past 3 months. 

My question is - Why is this not fraud? He coerced us into paying by bank transfer with the offer of £1000 discount if we paid in full. £1000 in our savings is substantial so we took the offer. He has knowingly taken the cash, and I believe without any intention to supply (he is a limited company and looking at Google since this he has done this a couple of times since our issue) and he's allowed to get away with it, why is this not fraud? 

I am now going back to the court but fear he will just dissolve his company and go and start again! 

Any help, thoughts or advice would be very much appreciated - thank you in advance and best wishes for 2025. 

Aylesbury_Duck

Does it matter if it's defined as fraud or not?  It doesn't change your situation.

As to what you can do next, I'm afraid there are only two options.  Going back to court, or judging that it isn't worth spending more money chasing a refund that is unlikely to materialise, and writing the money off.

As for the lack of protection around bank transfers, some banks do offer a form of protection but with chargeback and section 75 protections on other forms of payment, is there really a need to add protection to a system that many people use to send money to others or move money between accounts? It would add bureaucracy and cost to an everyday process.  There's never been any protection over cash payments, and that's basically what a bank transfer is.

elsien

He didn’t coerce you. He offered you a discount in circumstances that should raise warning bells and unfortunately you went for it.
As per the previous post, although it doesn’t seem right that someone could just wind up a company, walk away and do the same thing all over, on a practical level, you may be limited in what you can do to get your money back. 

saajan_12

GortonLad said:

In short, we paid (by bank transfer - big mistake and can't believe there is zero protection via this method) £9,000 for some kitchen units to be supplied in Nov 2023, after two excuses over a 6 month period as to why they had not been delivered I cancelled the order and requested a refund from the supplier. 

What protection are you expecting? If you handed over cash or a cheque to a random company, the money is gone and you'd still be looking to the courts for resolution. 

The protection could / should have been from 
(a) only handing over a 30-50% deposit with the rest upon delivery or completion of the job. This not only limits your loss but also incentivises them to complete. 

(b) checking who you're paying.. at least with a large company its going to be more costly to wind up than just complete your job (unless they have massive issues) and with paying a person, they would be personally liable and so want to protect their name. Ltd companies are by definition limited in the responsibility they will take. 

GortonLad

Thanks everyone for replying, I appreciate the time you’ve taken to do so but you haven’t told me anything I didn't or now don’t already know. 

A couple of additional points, isn’t hindsight wonderful? I obviously was not aware that a bank transfer gave no protection and it wouldn’t be so difficult for the banks to flag this before you make the payment.

On the point of what difference would it make if it was classed as fraud, if it was I could contact the police and report it as such, he would subsequently end up with a criminal record rather than a CCJ which in reality will have little impact on him. 

Thanks again for your feedback, but this becomes a matter of principle now, I cannot afford to lose £9k but if it means he has to be registered bankrupt and more importantly no one else suffers at the hands of what is a common thief the effort over two years will have been worth it. 

All the best for 2025. 

Olinda99

was he trading as a limited company or as himself ?

BTW it would be fraud (and thus a criminal matter) if, at the time of taking your order and money, he knew he could not fulfil the order and had no intention of fulfilling it.

born_again

GortonLad said:

Thanks everyone for replying, I appreciate the time you’ve taken to do so but you haven’t told me anything I didn't or now don’t already know. 

A couple of additional points, isn’t hindsight wonderful? I obviously was not aware that a bank transfer gave no protection and it wouldn’t be so difficult for the banks to flag this before you make the payment.

On the point of what difference would it make if it was classed as fraud, if it was I could contact the police and report it as such, he would subsequently end up with a criminal record rather than a CCJ which in reality will have little impact on him. 

Thanks again for your feedback, but this becomes a matter of principle now, I cannot afford to lose £9k but if it means he has to be registered bankrupt and more importantly no one else suffers at the hands of what is a common thief the effort over two years will have been worth it. 

All the best for 2025. 

You are given no end of warnings when making a bank transfer.
But there is a limit on the information that can be given, More than enough complaints about "I know what I'm spending my money on" without all the warnings. 🤷‍♀️

It would make no difference to getting money back. As a bank views fraud when a unknown 3rd party uses your details. This does not fall under the APP scam either.

All you can do is go the court route.

Sadly you were not coerced to make the payment, you saw a route to save some money 🤷‍♀️

Hoenir

GortonLad said:

I obviously was not aware that a bank transfer gave no protection and it wouldn’t be so difficult for the banks to flag this before you make the payment.

Protection against what? The payment transaction itself was above board. 

Aylesbury_Duck

GortonLad said:

Thanks everyone for replying, I appreciate the time you’ve taken to do so but you haven’t told me anything I didn't or now don’t already know. 

A couple of additional points, isn’t hindsight wonderful? I obviously was not aware that a bank transfer gave no protection and it wouldn’t be so difficult for the banks to flag this before you make the payment.

On the point of what difference would it make if it was classed as fraud, if it was I could contact the police and report it as such, he would subsequently end up with a criminal record rather than a CCJ which in reality will have little impact on him. 

Thanks again for your feedback, but this becomes a matter of principle now, I cannot afford to lose £9k but if it means he has to be registered bankrupt and more importantly no one else suffers at the hands of what is a common thief the effort over two years will have been worth it. 

All the best for 2025. 

Just be careful.  Principles can end up costing a lot of money.  You have lost most of the £9k and from what you say there seems little prospect of getting the rest out of him.  If you can't afford that loss, is spending more money on this affordable?

If you believe that he has knowingly defrauded you, then report it to the police. 

user1977

But be aware that it’s incredibly unlikely the police/CPS will get involved even if it is arguably fraud. And even if they did, prosecutions often take years. And wouldn’t get you your money back anyway.

Grumpy_chap

GortonLad said:

A couple of additional points, isn’t hindsight wonderful? I obviously was not aware that a bank transfer gave no protection and it wouldn’t be so difficult for the banks to flag this before you make the payment.

I don't know which bank you are with or how you made the bank transfer payment.
I do know with my bank (Barclays), whether using online banking or in-branch, the number of warnings about a transfer, especially a large transfer, to a new payee are so numerous and blatant as to be really rather annoying.