What Timer can be used with energy saving light bulbs?

FreeBear

twopenny said: Curious when it says 'fillament' as we now have LED fillament bulbs. So which era this refers to I'm not sure.

Last century or the Elizabethan era - Take your pick as to which term you want to use.

As for the initial inrush current when switching on an LED lamp - Yes, it can be scarily high if you look at the datasheets, but it is for a very, very short period of time (70A for 195uS or 0.000195 seconds for a 150W driver). A typical 5W or 10W bulb is likely to have a much lower inrush current. In theory, these sorts of currents could cause arcing across the relay contacts inside the timer, particularly with dirt cheap models. In practice, it really isn't an issue unless you are trying to switch multiple high powered lamps on or off.

I've been using cheap electronic light switches for several years now to switch up to 50W of LED lights. Absolutely no concerns about contact arcing.

Ectophile

I use the old-fashioned ones that are driven by a synchronous electric motor and have a dial that slowly turns round.  These sort use a proper switch to turn the load on and off, and so don't care what type of load it is.  They could operate anything from energy saving lamps to electric heaters.

Scrounger

ThisIsWeird said:

What an interesting thread, Annemos.
There's a few different things going on here, including, I suspect, the odd bit of manufacturer misinformation/outdatedness. And some sheer bad luck
First, we can split the timers into two camps; the ones that operate/replace wall-mounted light switches, and those that plug into 13A sockets.
There can be an 'issue' with the former, in that they can allow LED lamps to remain illuminated, or flicker, even when turned off. But this is not a fault, and also shouldn't be worrying - it won't 'blow'. It's simply that the electronics in the switch-replacing-timer requires a wee current to operate, and tries to draw this via the actual bulb. Traditional 'filament' builds ('resistive') would provide this, but newer LED and CLS (the latter thankfully now all but disappeared) weren't designed for this, and the tiny drawn current by the timer is sometimes enough to illuminate the lamp, making it glimmer or flicker. They just aren't compatible. But, that's the only issue - it doesn't work as intended, but isn't a 'risk'.
Then there's the 13A plug-in timers, which also fall into two categories, electronic (digital display) and electro-mechanical (analogue, with a motorised clock dial, with either pins or wee clips you push into place for the timings).
They use slightly different types of final 'switching' - the turning on and off of the appliance; electronic uses a 'relay', and mechanical a 'microswitch'. But both are rated at the full 13A, or else they wouldn't be permitted.
They can both, therefore, handle 'resistive' loads of up to 13A, and that includes heaters, electric blankets, and filament bulbs (tho these have they own issues!). In practice, I wouldn't want to leave either of these types handling anywhere close to 13A, tho', 'cos I don't think you should normally have devices driven 'hard'. But, it's 'permitted'.
So, why do they seemingly struggle with an LED or CLS lamp?! The answer is, they don't. At least not unless you try and illuminate the front of your house with 100s of mains Chrimbo LED or CLS lamps, all coming on at the same time, from the same timer or switch. 
Earlier LEDs seemingly had a high initial current rush in order to supply their drive circuits. I suspect - hope - that modern ones do not, at least not significantly, or perhaps have built in soft-start. CLS most likely do have a high initial rush as they fire up like fluorescent lamps requiring an effective 'starter'. Ok, I don't know the details of either, but if they do have a high initial 'start-up' current rush, then this could (and would) cause the relay/micro switch terminals to arc and burn, even tho' the running load was well within 13A. 
But, you'd have to have a serious number of such hi-start LEDs or CLS lamps for this to be a problem. And, ironically, the same would apply to filament bulbs, which definitely do have a high start-up current, hence them usually blowing when first turned on.
So, bottom line, there is no greater risk in powering similar-sized LED or CLS lamps from one of these plug-in timers, than with old filament bulbs. Seriously, you'd have to be switching every light in your house - and some - before there would be any risk, and that same (non)-risk would also apply to filament bulbs.
Phew. 
So, why did your old timer blow up, Anne? Sheer bad luck - almost certainly your CLS failed in a catastrophic manner, causing a short circuit which blew the timer before the fuse had a chance to pop. (The fuse for that lamp should have been 3A or less). It's a surprise, of course, but non the less not at all representative; you were unlucky.
So why does that Argos electronic timer say 'no energy-saving lamps'? I don't know - it's nuts. But I'm going to stick my neck out and say it's most likely a throwback to early generation CLS or LEDs which may have had excessively high start-up currents, or possibly it's even a cross-contamination of the instructions for wall-mounted light switch timers, but I'm going to state that it's almost certainly just 'wrong'. Modern LEDs, whilst they 'may' have a start-up current, will still be much lower than that if a filament bulb of equivalent rating.
As I said before, you'd have to plug in 100's of lamps, getting somewhere close to 13A limit, before the start-up power surge could damage the timer, or blow a fuse, but the exact same thing would apply to filament bulbs.
I cannot see any remotely normal circumstance where a timer will blow due to too many LEDs. Take this to the logical conclusion - plugging such excessive strings of LEDs directly into your mains socket and flicking that switch would impose a similar draw. And that would be equally unacceptable.

(Digital timers don't use thyristors, do they?)

No, they always use relays.

IMHO you can use any timer with any type of household lamp - currents are so low not worth worrying about.

I agree with @ThisIsWeird as above as to why your timer went bang - just bad luck.

Dimmer switches on the other hand are a different kettle of chips.


Scrounger

ThisIsWeird

twopenny said:

I have both sorts of timers but if I do need them again I think it may be wise to buy new. I've had my moneysworth over the years.

Curious when it says 'fillament' as we now have LED fillament bulbs. So which era this refers to I'm not sure.

For the low cost, yes, worth buying new. But, once you do, really don't worry about them switching either LED or conventional lighting - they will cope with aplomb, waaaaay within their rating.

Pros for Digital type - they'll often have a 'random' function, which is what you may want for security purposes. Also, you can set different timings for different days. Cons - they can be a bit head-scratching to program - or is that just me?

I use one for turning on our leccy blanket for a half-hour before bedtime, and have written the instructions on how to switch to Summer-time on its side with a thick permanent marker

I had electro-mech ones before, but they tend to start creaking after a few months, and the synchro motor is often audible too.

The 'filament' moniker in some LED styles just refers to the physical style - they are designed to visually replicate old-fashioned, proper filament lamps. They can be really nice - very clever design - but they are still pure LEDs.

Annemos

ThisIsWierd.

That is an excellent and very complete explanation. Thank you very much indeed. 

Many thanks to everyone for all your kind and helpful replies. 

Re the bang: 

I am wondering, now, if that Table Lamp had one of the older Fluorescent bulbs in it. The ones with the spirals. I had those in the old days when they first came out. They were perhaps not at all suitable. 


I also have an issue (cons) with the digital Timers. Over time (about 5 years), the display on mine has become unreadable. It is as if all the digits have bled into one another and all I can see now are 8888.  I don't have anything plugged into it currently, but the Timer is still in the Wall. The red light showing the Power is on, is coming on and off at the correct time. But the inability to understand the display is now very inconvenient. 

I shall probably go for one of the Mechanical Timers from Timeguard (not the little pins one, the other one). 


One more question for advice... if one is not currently using these Timers with any appliance/table lamp, is it still best to leave them plugged into the Wall socket? So they keep in the activation state, if you see what I mean and the clock is always operating?    Or would you all just remove the Timer and only plug it in the wall when needed.  (For someone like me, who only uses it about one evening a month in the Winter.) 


I just checked the plug fuse on the Table Lamp I shall be using and it is 5 Amps. 


I have actually been booking my main holidays in those months where I do not have to worry about leaving any lights on!! Luckily, the places I choose to go to are really cold in the Winter, so I don't visit them when we have dark evenings here. 

ThisIsWeird

Annemos said:

ThisIsWierd.

That is an excellent and very complete explanation. Thank you very much indeed. 

Many thanks to everyone for all your kind and helpful replies. 

Re the bang: 

I am wondering, now, if that Table Lamp had one of the older Fluorescent bulbs in it. The ones with the spirals. I had those in the old days when they first came out. They were perhaps not at all suitable. 


I also have an issue (cons) with the digital Timers. Over time (about 5 years), the display on mine has become unreadable. It is as if all the digits have bled into one another and all I can see now are 8888.  I don't have anything plugged into it currently, but the Timer is still in the Wall. The red light showing the Power is on, is coming on and off at the correct time. But the inability to understand the display is now very inconvenient. 

I shall probably go for one of the Mechanical Timers from Timeguard (not the little pins one, the other one). 


One more question for advice... if one is not currently using these Timers with any appliance/table lamp, is it still best to leave them plugged into the Wall socket? So they keep in the activation state, if you see what I mean and the clock is always operating?    Or would you all just remove the Timer and only plug it in the wall when needed.  (For someone like me, who only uses it about one evening a month in the Winter.) 


I just checked the plug fuse on the Table Lamp I shall be using and it is 5 Amps. 


I have actually been booking my main holidays in those months where I do not have to worry about leaving any lights on!! Luckily, the places I choose to go to are really cold in the Winter, so I don't visit them when we have dark evenings here. 

The 'older florie' is the CFL I mentioned - compact fluorescent lamp. I understand they do have a greater initial power surge on switch on, but this will be of zero consequence to the physical switch in a timer, which is 'rated' at 13A but can actually handle a lot more.
Just like you wouldn't expect a normal wall-mounted light switch to blow up when used with a CFL, the actual 'switch' part in a timer - similar rating - will also not do so when used with a CFL. So, almost certainly, your CFL just happened to fail in a very unusual manner that did blow your timer. It doesn't mean it wasn't compatible. Pure bad luck, very unusual - it won't happen again :-)
Actually, I just had a thought - there is an equal chance that the motor windings in you timer motor failed, shorted, and caused the explosive issue - now't at all to do with the CFL. 
5A is fine, tho' 3A is better - the lowest that will do the job is slightly safer.
Yes, digital displays can fail like that over time, but the motor in a mechanical timer is likely to do so too. My digi is currently lasting longer than my previous mechies, which became slow and noisy.
As for whether to keep them plugged in, that's your call! My digi was turned off for the many mild months, and the display went off after the internal battery went flat. So I had to reprogram it. No big deal, and that wee hassle probably means the actual unit will last longer overall. With a mech timer, I'd definitely switch it off when not needed for a few months, as it will just be wearing out the motor and gearbox, and to reset the time is a doddle.

molerat

Have had a digital timer permanently plugged in operating a CFL for I don't know how many years, has worked flawlessly.  Just replaced it with a Tapo because I can control it remotely and override the timings more easily (and because Amazon had a P110MA included in a bundle deal for an extra £5) .  Also use them with CFLs when away on holiday, again no problems.

Goldenyears

We have had portable LED lights switched by both electromechanical and electronic timers for many years without any issues. The only comment I make about an electronic timer is that its non-serviceable internal battery may fail after 10-12 years. If it's plugged in when this happens will it continue to work?   Our electronic timer switching a 3KW immersion failed for this reason- different load and fully wired in I know but same issue.

ThisIsWeird

Goldenyears said:

We have had portable LED lights switched by both electromechanical and electronic timers for many years without any issues. The only comment I make about an electronic timer is that its non-serviceable internal battery may fail after 10-12 years. If it's plugged in when this happens will it continue to work?   Our electronic timer switching a 3KW immersion failed for this reason- different load and fully wired in I know but same issue.

My understanding is that the internal battery is only there to maintain the display and timings during power cuts. So, yes, it should continue to work once re-plugged, and - if necessary - reprogrammed.

I'm trying to recall what happened when I turned the power back on to my own digi timer a month or so ago, after it was off since around March. The display was completely off, of course, but I switched the power back on - socket switch - and left it for a day. Not sure if I needed to add the time, but I'm near-certain that the programmed on-off was still there.

Bottom line - even if the battery is completely defunct, the unit should work as normal as long as it's powered.