Flow Temperature or Thermostat or TRV or Lockshield Valve?

Reed_Richards

Ectophile said:

To confirm the lockshield valve controls how much hot water is leaving the rad meaning closing the lockshield valve will stop the hot water leaving the rad and opening the lockshield valve does the opposite?

But the law of conservation of matter means that the amount of water going out must equal the amount of water going in.  So either valve can limit the amount of water that's going through the radiator.

I hate to tell you this but the law of conservation of matter was formulated in the context of a chemical reaction and really only applies in that context.  Think of Einstein's famous equation as a counter-example.  However you're not wrong about the amount of water going in equalling the amount of water coming out.

bob2302

Reed_Richards said:

Ectophile said:

To confirm the lockshield valve controls how much hot water is leaving the rad meaning closing the lockshield valve will stop the hot water leaving the rad and opening the lockshield valve does the opposite?

But the law of conservation of matter means that the amount of water going out must equal the amount of water going in.  So either valve can limit the amount of water that's going through the radiator.

I hate to tell you this but the law of conservation of matter was formulated in the context of a chemical reaction and really only applies in that context.  Think of Einstein's famous equation as a counter-example.  However you're not wrong about the amount of water going in equalling the amount of water coming out.

FWIW it's the conservation of mass, not matter. 

Reed_Richards

bob2302 said:

Reed_Richards said:

Ectophile said:

To confirm the lockshield valve controls how much hot water is leaving the rad meaning closing the lockshield valve will stop the hot water leaving the rad and opening the lockshield valve does the opposite?

But the law of conservation of matter means that the amount of water going out must equal the amount of water going in.  So either valve can limit the amount of water that's going through the radiator.

I hate to tell you this but the law of conservation of matter was formulated in the context of a chemical reaction and really only applies in that context.  Think of Einstein's famous equation as a counter-example.  However you're not wrong about the amount of water going in equalling the amount of water coming out.

FWIW it's the conservation of mass, not matter. 

Don't tell me, tell @Ectophile; I was quoting them.

bery_451

FreeBear said:

bery_451 said:

FreeBear said:

bery_451 said: I have a feeling millions of households in the UK are losing £££'s of gas per year each because the average energy user doesn't know how to run their gas central heating system efficiently and everything we discussed in this thread sounds complicated for the average energy usage to do and they require a expensive plumber to sort out all that balancing & stuff.

It is indeed quite likely that many households are wasting energy because they have a poorly set up heating system. However, balancing radiators is not complicated, and only needs a couple of cheap thermometers to clip on the pipes, and time. Whilst this isn't the cheapest (shop around for a better price), it is quick & easy to use -> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Thermometer-Temperature-Channel-Thermocouple/dp/B0CBBRHK8Q/

Just make sure all the TRVs are set to max before attempting to adjust the lockshields (and turn the pump speed right down).

Turning the pump speed right down is closing the lockshield?

No.

Turning the pump speed down allows the water more time to give up heat whilst it is in the radiator. Having water circulating at a lower speed means that the lockshield isn't so sensitive to adjustments when attempting to balance the system.

When my boiler was installed (about 18 months ago), the "engineer" left everything on default settings. When I attempted to balance the radiators, just a tiny tweak of the lockshield was the difference between no flow, or insufficient temperature drop. Only after turning the pump right down was I able to adjust the lockshields properly.

Okay my next question will be how do you adjust the pump speed?

bery_451

Ectophile said:

To confirm the lockshield valve controls how much hot water is leaving the rad meaning closing the lockshield valve will stop the hot water leaving the rad and opening the lockshield valve does the opposite?

But the law of conservation of matter means that the amount of water going out must equal the amount of water going in.  So either valve can limit the amount of water that's going through the radiator.

To confirm the TRV controls how much hot water goes in the rad?

Yes.  But it bases that on the room temperature, and how you've set the knob on the valve.

So you saying the 2 valves needs to balance & synch with each other and match in air temp when you say must equal? If that is the case then what you adjust lockshield valve to, fully open, half open, quarter open or nearly closed & how you know which one to select?

The TRV and the lockshield valve have completely different purposes, and there's no real link between them.

You need to balance the lockshield valves from radiator to radiator, so that each one gets its fair share of the water from the boiler.

Okay when you say close to boiler do you mean the radiators closest to boiler in distance or the radiators with the shortest copper pipes closest to the boiler because you could have a radiator upstairs on top of the boiler downstairs in the kitchen with the rad upstairs having the shortest copper pipes length to the boiler in compared to the rad in the kitchen for example even though the rad in the kitchen seems closer to the boiler you know what I mean.

I meant the shortest pipework.

Given the choice, the water flow will be lazy.  If the lockshield valve is fully open on the radiator with the shortest pipe run, then most of the water flow will go through that radiator (until that room is so warm that the TRV turns off).  The radiator at the far end of the pipe run will get very little water flow and will take ages to warm up.

Okay starting to get confusing, hopefully lets clear a few things:

- TRV Valve controls how much goes in the rad, true or false?

- Lockshield Valve controls how much water is leaving the rad, true or false?

TRV valve has 5 or 6 position settings, Lockshield Valve can be tightened or loosen manually to any degree. With this Law of Conservation you saying these valves do not really control how much water is going into the rad or leaving the rad because this Law says water going into the rad much match water leaving the rad at the same time? Or water only leaves the rad when set TRV temp is reached?

So basically the rads with the shortest pipe runs should have lockshield valves tightened and vice-versa? Next question will be if copper pipes are under floors or in walls hidden then how do you which rads have the shortest or the longest copper pipes in lets say a 5 Bed house with 2 bathrooms?

bery_451

FreeBear said:

Ectophile said: Given the choice, the water flow will be lazy.  If the lockshield valve is fully open on the radiator with the shortest pipe run, then most of the water flow will go through that radiator (until that room is so warm that the TRV turns off).  The radiator at the far end of the pipe run will get very little water flow and will take ages to warm up.

Or you could whack up the flow temperature and set the pump to run at max speed. Eventually, all the water would get hot (as would the radiators). But your efficiency would fall through the floor and cost a fortune to run.

Heat Geek do an informative series of posts about balancing heating system and the benefits of running a modern boiler in condensing mode. Some of the writings are rather technical and veer off at a tangent in some spots. But still worth a read with an open mind.

Whacking up the flow temp sounds lovely to get the heating more hot but sounds very expensive.

You can choose multiple modes on a modern boiler like condensing mode?

FreeBear

bery_451 said:

FreeBear said:

bery_451 said:

FreeBear said:

bery_451 said: I have a feeling millions of households in the UK are losing £££'s of gas per year each because the average energy user doesn't know how to run their gas central heating system efficiently and everything we discussed in this thread sounds complicated for the average energy usage to do and they require a expensive plumber to sort out all that balancing & stuff.

It is indeed quite likely that many households are wasting energy because they have a poorly set up heating system. However, balancing radiators is not complicated, and only needs a couple of cheap thermometers to clip on the pipes, and time. Whilst this isn't the cheapest (shop around for a better price), it is quick & easy to use -> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Thermometer-Temperature-Channel-Thermocouple/dp/B0CBBRHK8Q/

Just make sure all the TRVs are set to max before attempting to adjust the lockshields (and turn the pump speed right down).

Turning the pump speed right down is closing the lockshield?

No.

Turning the pump speed down allows the water more time to give up heat whilst it is in the radiator. Having water circulating at a lower speed means that the lockshield isn't so sensitive to adjustments when attempting to balance the system.

When my boiler was installed (about 18 months ago), the "engineer" left everything on default settings. When I attempted to balance the radiators, just a tiny tweak of the lockshield was the difference between no flow, or insufficient temperature drop. Only after turning the pump right down was I able to adjust the lockshields properly.

Okay my next question will be how do you adjust the pump speed?

Depends on the pump. Some, it is just a knob that you rotate, others need a series of button presses. If the pump is integrated into a boiler, it could well be a menu setting (either accessed via the front panel or by an app).

bery_451 said:

Nope

FreeBear said:

Ectophile said: Given the choice, the water flow will be lazy.  If the lockshield valve is fully open on the radiator with the shortest pipe run, then most of the water flow will go through that radiator (until that room is so warm that the TRV turns off).  The radiator at the far end of the pipe run will get very little water flow and will take ages to warm up.

Or you could whack up the flow temperature and set the pump to run at max speed. Eventually, all the water would get hot (as would the radiators). But your efficiency would fall through the floor and cost a fortune to run.

Heat Geek do an informative series of posts about balancing heating system and the benefits of running a modern boiler in condensing mode. Some of the writings are rather technical and veer off at a tangent in some spots. But still worth a read with an open mind.

Whacking up the flow temp sounds lovely to get the heating more hot but sounds very expensive.

You can choose multiple modes on a modern boiler like condensing mode?

Nope. Condensing mode is closely linked to the return temperature. If the flow & return temperature is too high, no condensing takes place which reduces efficiency and results in a higher gas bill. With a well tuned heating system, 94% or more efficiency is readily achievable. Wind up flow temperature to max and not even bother to balance the radiators, efficiency could be as low as 75%. Or put another way, costing you 20% more than it could do.

Another reason to limit the temperature is the safety aspect. 60°C is hot enough to cause burns, and the risk increases with temperature.

Reed_Richards

bery_451 said:

Okay starting to get confusing, hopefully lets clear a few things:

- TRV Valve controls how much goes in the rad, true or false?

False. It controls the rate of water flow through the radiator according to the temperature.  It gets progressively more closed as the room temperature nears the temperature set on the TRV and that causes the flow rate to decrease.

bery_451 said:

- Lockshield Valve controls how much water is leaving the rad, true or false?

False.  The lockshield valve controls the maximum water flow rate through the radiator (at any given pump speed).  
 

bery_451

FreeBear said:

bery_451 said:

FreeBear said:

bery_451 said:

FreeBear said:

bery_451 said: I have a feeling millions of households in the UK are losing £££'s of gas per year each because the average energy user doesn't know how to run their gas central heating system efficiently and everything we discussed in this thread sounds complicated for the average energy usage to do and they require a expensive plumber to sort out all that balancing & stuff.

It is indeed quite likely that many households are wasting energy because they have a poorly set up heating system. However, balancing radiators is not complicated, and only needs a couple of cheap thermometers to clip on the pipes, and time. Whilst this isn't the cheapest (shop around for a better price), it is quick & easy to use -> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Thermometer-Temperature-Channel-Thermocouple/dp/B0CBBRHK8Q/

Just make sure all the TRVs are set to max before attempting to adjust the lockshields (and turn the pump speed right down).

Turning the pump speed right down is closing the lockshield?

No.

Turning the pump speed down allows the water more time to give up heat whilst it is in the radiator. Having water circulating at a lower speed means that the lockshield isn't so sensitive to adjustments when attempting to balance the system.

When my boiler was installed (about 18 months ago), the "engineer" left everything on default settings. When I attempted to balance the radiators, just a tiny tweak of the lockshield was the difference between no flow, or insufficient temperature drop. Only after turning the pump right down was I able to adjust the lockshields properly.

Okay my next question will be how do you adjust the pump speed?

Depends on the pump. Some, it is just a knob that you rotate, others need a series of button presses. If the pump is integrated into a boiler, it could well be a menu setting (either accessed via the front panel or by an app).

bery_451 said:

Nope

FreeBear said:

Ectophile said: Given the choice, the water flow will be lazy.  If the lockshield valve is fully open on the radiator with the shortest pipe run, then most of the water flow will go through that radiator (until that room is so warm that the TRV turns off).  The radiator at the far end of the pipe run will get very little water flow and will take ages to warm up.

Or you could whack up the flow temperature and set the pump to run at max speed. Eventually, all the water would get hot (as would the radiators). But your efficiency would fall through the floor and cost a fortune to run.

Heat Geek do an informative series of posts about balancing heating system and the benefits of running a modern boiler in condensing mode. Some of the writings are rather technical and veer off at a tangent in some spots. But still worth a read with an open mind.

Whacking up the flow temp sounds lovely to get the heating more hot but sounds very expensive.

You can choose multiple modes on a modern boiler like condensing mode?

Nope. Condensing mode is closely linked to the return temperature. If the flow & return temperature is too high, no condensing takes place which reduces efficiency and results in a higher gas bill. With a well tuned heating system, 94% or more efficiency is readily achievable. Wind up flow temperature to max and not even bother to balance the radiators, efficiency could be as low as 75%. Or put another way, costing you 20% more than it could do.

Another reason to limit the temperature is the safety aspect. 60°C is hot enough to cause burns, and the risk increases with temperature.

Okay in other words the pump speed can be accessed by the service menu electronically on most modern boilers similar to accessing the bios/uefi on a computer?

Alright for proper condensing the flow and return temps cannot be the same? The flow or return, which has to be lower in temp? Condensation condensing as in for example warm air touches cold glass windows causing condensation?

bery_451

Reed_Richards said:

False.  The lockshield valve controls the maximum water flow rate through the radiator (at any given pump speed).  
 

To clarify for better understanding each rad has 2 copper pipes connected to it. The one that goes into the TRV is that the flow pipe (bring water into the rad) and the one connected to the lockshield valve is the return (water leaving the rad) correct? If yes then the lockshield controls the return water or is it the flow water?