Utility Warehouse electric bill

debitcardmayhem

I wonder if they are using it as a VAT fiddle…

Mike1930

superkoopauk said:

       

 Your charges this bill 

                Electricity budget plan   £82.86

                VAT @ 5%                       £4.14 

                Your payment this bill    £87.00

                                                                                                   October balance                             +£82.86 

                                                                                                   November total charges                  -£70.29 

                                                                                                   November budget plan payment    +£82.86 

                                                                                                        After payment you're in credit    +£95.43

                                                                                                                 Electricity usage charged    £52.01 

                                                                                    Standing charge 04-10-2024 to 31-10-2024    £18.28 

                                                                                                                    Total electricity charges    £70.29

As you can see I paid £87 but they deducted the £4.14 when they credited my account with £82.86 on the right instead of £87.

Say your account was ended now.  UW would give you back £95.43 + £4.77 VAT = £100.20
You had paid £87 * 2 = £174 minus the £100.20 credit = £73.80
And your energy usage is £70.29 + £3.51 VAT = £73.80

Hence you would have paid exactly for your usage and the process works.

So effectively they are charging you VAT against your payments but recording the balance ex VAT.  But when the balance is released VAT is added so you don't lose out

superkoopauk said:

       

 Your charges this bill 

                Electricity budget plan   £82.86

                VAT @ 5%                       £4.14 

                Your payment this bill    £87.00

                                                                                                   October balance                             +£82.86 

                                                                                                   November total charges                  -£70.29 

                                                                                                   November budget plan payment    +£82.86 

                                                                                                        After payment you're in credit    +£95.43

                                                                                                                 Electricity usage charged    £52.01 

                                                                                    Standing charge 04-10-2024 to 31-10-2024    £18.28 

                                                                                                                    Total electricity charges    £70.29

As you can see I paid £87 but they deducted the £4.14 when they credited my account with £82.86 on the right instead of £87.

Say your account was ended now.  UW would give you back £95.43 + £4.77 VAT = £100.20
You had paid £87 * 2 = £174 minus the £100.20 credit = £73.80
And your energy usage is £70.29 + £3.51 VAT = £73.80

Hence you would have paid exactly for your usage and the process works.

So effectively they are charging you VAT against your payments but recording the balance ex VAT.  But when the balance is released VAT is added so you don't lose out

Thanks.  The figure you say UW would give me back of £95.43 + £4.77 VAT = £100.20 is as they informed me. 

The energy figure of £70.29 includes VAT of £3.94 which equals £66.94 net of VAT.  This means they debit the electric used including VAT but exclude the VAT in my £87 credits.

 Therefore I am still thinking the figures should be £87 * 2 = £174 minus the £70.29 used = £103.71 credit balance.

 Sorry if I have it wrong and appear thick.

Mike1930

MWT said:

As long as they apply the credit with the VAT deducted against the energy costs before VAT is added then all is correct.

They don't.  If you look at my figures they put credits net of VAT which seems to me I am loosing £4.14 per month.

QrizB

Mike1930

superkoopauk said:

       

 Your charges this bill 

                Electricity budget plan   £82.86

                VAT @ 5%                       £4.14 

                Your payment this bill    £87.00

                                                                                                   October balance                             +£82.86 

                                                                                                   November total charges                  -£70.29 

                                                                                                   November budget plan payment    +£82.86 

                                                                                                        After payment you're in credit    +£95.43

                                                                                                                 Electricity usage charged    £52.01 

                                                                                    Standing charge 04-10-2024 to 31-10-2024    £18.28 

                                                                                                                    Total electricity charges    £70.29

As you can see I paid £87 but they deducted the £4.14 when they credited my account with £82.86 on the right instead of £87.

Say your account was ended now.  UW would give you back £95.43 + £4.77 VAT = £100.20
You had paid £87 * 2 = £174 minus the £100.20 credit = £73.80
And your energy usage is £70.29 + £3.51 VAT = £73.80

Hence you would have paid exactly for your usage and the process works.

So effectively they are charging you VAT against your payments but recording the balance ex VAT.  But when the balance is released VAT is added so you don't lose out

Thanks.  The figure you say UW would give me back of £95.43 + £4.77 VAT = £100.20 is as they informed me. 

The energy figure of £70.29 includes VAT of £3.94 which equals £66.94 net of VAT.  This means they debit the electric used including VAT but exclude the VAT in my £87 credits.

 Therefore I am still thinking the figures should be £87 * 2 = £174 minus the £70.29 used = £103.71 credit balance.

 Sorry if I have it wrong and appear thick.

Are you sure the £70.29 includes VAT?

Looking at your standing charge, you've been charged £18.28 for 28 days. £18.28 doesn't divide nicely by 28, but (18.28 x 1.05) does., giving 68.55p/day. This might mean the £18.28 is ex-VAT?

Mike1930

QrizB said:

Mike1930

superkoopauk said:

       

 Your charges this bill 

                Electricity budget plan   £82.86

                VAT @ 5%                       £4.14 

                Your payment this bill    £87.00

                                                                                                   October balance                             +£82.86 

                                                                                                   November total charges                  -£70.29 

                                                                                                   November budget plan payment    +£82.86 

                                                                                                        After payment you're in credit    +£95.43

                                                                                                                 Electricity usage charged    £52.01 

                                                                                    Standing charge 04-10-2024 to 31-10-2024    £18.28 

                                                                                                                    Total electricity charges    £70.29

As you can see I paid £87 but they deducted the £4.14 when they credited my account with £82.86 on the right instead of £87.

Say your account was ended now.  UW would give you back £95.43 + £4.77 VAT = £100.20
You had paid £87 * 2 = £174 minus the £100.20 credit = £73.80
And your energy usage is £70.29 + £3.51 VAT = £73.80

Hence you would have paid exactly for your usage and the process works.

So effectively they are charging you VAT against your payments but recording the balance ex VAT.  But when the balance is released VAT is added so you don't lose out

Thanks.  The figure you say UW would give me back of £95.43 + £4.77 VAT = £100.20 is as they informed me. 

The energy figure of £70.29 includes VAT of £3.94 which equals £66.94 net of VAT.  This means they debit the electric used including VAT but exclude the VAT in my £87 credits.

 Therefore I am still thinking the figures should be £87 * 2 = £174 minus the £70.29 used = £103.71 credit balance.

 Sorry if I have it wrong and appear thick.

Are you sure the £70.29 includes VAT?

Looking at your standing charge, you've been charged £18.28 for 28 days. £18.28 doesn't divide nicely by 28, but (18.28 x 1.05) does., giving 68.55p/day. This might mean the £18.28 is ex-VAT?

Yes I am sure VAT is included.  On my first bill it shows I paid £82.86 plus £4.14 VAT = £87.00.  There was no electric charged but they show a payment of £82.86 and the credit balance of £82.86.  Therefore my thought is my credit balance should equal the money I have paid but it appears to me to be short by the VAT amount of £4.14.

superkoopauk

VAT isn't included in the £70.29.  Therefore you will get the VAT back on top once the BP is reconciled.

Mike1930

superkoopauk said:

VAT isn't included in the £70.29.  Therefore you will get the VAT back on top once the BP is reconciled.

UW came to a different figure than I did on my second invoice.  

It would also be good if the invoice showed the correct closing balance rather than adding it later.

Mike1930

Update 10th Dec 2024.

From my phone call to UW yesterday I am now able to confirm the usage rates and standing charge are net of VAT.  

The VAT is not shown or added to my usage which is £74.04 for December.  If they had the VAT would have been £3.70.  I have agreed to pay a set amount of £87.00 a month.  The VAT is deducted from the £87.00 (£4.14) and the £82.86 is credited to my credit balance.  I seem to have lost £0.44 VAT.  

I gather from the phone call if I pay for electric used instead of a set amount each month the invoice will show VAT added to my electric consumption.  I think I will understand this better so have asked to switch.

Gerry1

Mike1930 said:

Update 10th Dec 2024.

I seem to have lost £0.44 VAT.

You haven't lost 44p VAT.  You're comparing different baselines.   Effectively you've made an overpayment.

If you'd had a conventional bill it would have shown £74.04 plus £3.30 VAT and you would have settled it in full by paying £77.74

But you've actually paid in a total of £87 (equal to £82.86 plus £4.14 VAT). You've overpaid by £9.26 (£87 - £77.74).  That £9.26 overpayment is equal to a bill of £8.82 plus 44p VAT.  Effectively you settled your bill and paid an extra 44p VAT in advance.

You won't have to pay that 44p again. If you decided to quit after clocking up £8.82 in kWh and standing charges that would bring your balance down to zero.  The government has already got the 44p VAT and so UW would use your remaining £8.82 credit to clear your account.

Mike1930

Gerry1 said:

Mike1930 said:

Update 10th Dec 2024.

I seem to have lost £0.44 VAT.

You haven't lost 44p VAT.  You're comparing different baselines.   Effectively you've made an overpayment.

If you'd had a conventional bill it would have shown £74.04 plus £3.30 VAT and you would have settled it in full by paying £77.74

But you've actually paid in a total of £87 (equal to £82.86 plus £4.14 VAT). You've overpaid by £9.26 (£87 - £77.74).  That £9.26 overpayment is equal to a bill of £8.82 plus 44p VAT.  Effectively you settled your bill and paid an extra 44p VAT in advance.

You won't have to pay that 44p again. If you decided to quit after clocking up £8.82 in kWh and standing charges that would bring your balance down to zero.  The government has already got the 44p VAT and so UW would use your remaining £8.82 credit to clear your account.

Thanks Gerry

I have asked to be changed over to paying for electric used and the bills will show VAT on the use.  The the amount I pay will equal my use.  For me this will be easier to understand.