Christmas Dinner Money Refund

Cheanthye

Hi guys. I just want to know if I can do anything regarding no refund for Christmas dinner cancellation. I booked for a family of six around august and paid a deposit of £60 via the phone. We decided as an family we will just have a Christmas dinner at home and phoned back to cancel mid October. I checked the bank account and realised they didn't refund us so i phoned back to ask why this morning and the told me that it states on their website that there is no refund for cancellations on Christmas dinners. I didn't know that because one I didn't book through their website and two when I spoke to the person, they didn't inform me that there isn't a refund for cancellation or else I would not have book due to unforeseen circumstances. Can I do something about it or do I just accept my loss?

DullGreyGuy

There is no legal requirement for them to offer refunds on bookings for entertainment for a specified date/time and even if there was there would a 14 day limit and clearly you went far beyond that. 

Deposits generally are non-refundable otherwise they are pointless. 

You could attempt to argue its an unfair contract term but it will be an up struggle as at that level its in line with what many would charge as a basic administration fee and cover the costs of them having to release the booking, try and resell it and potentially not sell it before the day, or have to sell it to a smaller group etc. 

swingaloo

Is the venue now sold out for Christmas Day? Everyone round our area is so at this stage I would have thought they may still be able to sell your seat reservations. Its down to goodwill on their part though. Are you a regular customer?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

Deposits generally are non-refundable otherwise they are pointless. 

Deposits are generally refundable (in consumer contracts) otherwise they'd be unfair, a genuine reservation fee on the other hand can be non-refundable  

At £10 a head they could argue it's a reservation fee although as a whole £60 does sound a lot to reserve a table, the only defence against this is the following can be tested for fairness:

A term which has the object or effect of requiring that, where the consumer decides not to conclude or perform the contract, the consumer must pay the trader a disproportionately high sum in compensation or for services which have not been supplied.

Cancelling mid-October should them plenty of time to rebook, OP I'd be tempted to say, no worries we'll attend and see what they say, if they say you can't I'd push for my £60 back, if they say you can I assume there's no obligation to attend as that's what they say their £60 is for.... 

Penguin_

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Deposits generally are non-refundable otherwise they are pointless. 

Deposits are generally refundable (in consumer contracts) otherwise they'd be unfair, a genuine reservation fee on the other hand can be non-refundable  

At £10 a head they could argue it's a reservation fee although as a whole £60 does sound a lot to reserve a table, the only defence against this is the following can be tested for fairness:

A term which has the object or effect of requiring that, where the consumer decides not to conclude or perform the contract, the consumer must pay the trader a disproportionately high sum in compensation or for services which have not been supplied.

Cancelling mid-October should them plenty of time to rebook, OP I'd be tempted to say, no worries we'll attend and see what they say, if they say you can't I'd push for my £60 back, if they say you can I assume there's no obligation to attend as that's what they say their £60 is for.... 

£10 a head deposit for tables is pretty much standard now round my way (west Wales) for groups of 6 or more on normal nights in restaurants. 

DullGreyGuy

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Deposits generally are non-refundable otherwise they are pointless. 

Deposits are generally refundable (in consumer contracts) otherwise they'd be unfair, a genuine reservation fee on the other hand can be non-refundable  

At £10 a head they could argue it's a reservation fee although as a whole £60 does sound a lot to reserve a table, the only defence against this is the following can be tested for fairness:

A term which has the object or effect of requiring that, where the consumer decides not to conclude or perform the contract, the consumer must pay the trader a disproportionately high sum in compensation or for services which have not been supplied.

Cancelling mid-October should them plenty of time to rebook, OP I'd be tempted to say, no worries we'll attend and see what they say, if they say you can't I'd push for my £60 back, if they say you can I assume there's no obligation to attend as that's what they say their £60 is for.... 

Your own texts argues that they arent generally refundable, they just have to be proportionate. 

In commercial contracts the courts appear to be moving away from the historic dislike of fixed costs for breaches and warming to the idea its simpler for everyone rather than having to claim actual losses on each and every case. Consumer contracts, which I dont deal with anywhere near as much these days, really should follow suit

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Deposits generally are non-refundable otherwise they are pointless. 

Deposits are generally refundable (in consumer contracts) otherwise they'd be unfair, a genuine reservation fee on the other hand can be non-refundable  

At £10 a head they could argue it's a reservation fee although as a whole £60 does sound a lot to reserve a table, the only defence against this is the following can be tested for fairness:

A term which has the object or effect of requiring that, where the consumer decides not to conclude or perform the contract, the consumer must pay the trader a disproportionately high sum in compensation or for services which have not been supplied.

Cancelling mid-October should them plenty of time to rebook, OP I'd be tempted to say, no worries we'll attend and see what they say, if they say you can't I'd push for my £60 back, if they say you can I assume there's no obligation to attend as that's what they say their £60 is for.... 

Your own texts argues that they arent generally refundable, they just have to be proportionate. 

In commercial contracts the courts appear to be moving away from the historic dislike of fixed costs for breaches and warming to the idea its simpler for everyone rather than having to claim actual losses on each and every case. Consumer contracts, which I dont deal with anywhere near as much these days, really should follow suit

A genuine reservation fee would be separate from this, so if you pay £10 to reserve your dinner table, sky diving experience, car parking space then that fee is to reserve the spot and can be kept.

I guess most restaurants will knock the money taken upon booking off the bill (otherwise people wouldn't pay it) so it isn't really a reservation fee, it's an advanced payment.

If a company charges a £10 reservation fee they simply keep that, if the customer breaches the contract and the damages are £90 then AFAIK the customer is out £100 as the reservation fee is separate thing. 

Most "deposits" are advanced payments and yes I guess if that "deposit" matches the damages due resulting from breach of contract then it is effectively "non refundable" although I'm not sure how a restaurant can claim taking a(nother to replace OP which is likely at Xmas) table booking costs them £60, if a restaurant spent that kind of money simply for a customer to make a booking for a table these places wouldn't make any money.....

pinkshoes

Cheanthye said:

Hi guys. I just want to know if I can do anything regarding no refund for Christmas dinner cancellation. I booked for a family of six around august and paid a deposit of £60 via the phone. We decided as an family we will just have a Christmas dinner at home and phoned back to cancel mid October. I checked the bank account and realised they didn't refund us so i phoned back to ask why this morning and the told me that it states on their website that there is no refund for cancellations on Christmas dinners. I didn't know that because one I didn't book through their website and two when I spoke to the person, they didn't inform me that there isn't a refund for cancellation or else I would not have book due to unforeseen circumstances. Can I do something about it or do I just accept my loss?

We're there any T&Cs made clear with this deposit?

Given most places are fully booked for Christmas I'd rethink about going. Phone them up again, as about the refund. If they say then don't refund them tell them never mind, as they can't refund then you'll go ahead with the booking. If they then say then can't accommodate you then they need to refund as they can't keep your deposit as well as booking the table again. 

kinger101

Penguin_ said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Deposits generally are non-refundable otherwise they are pointless. 

Deposits are generally refundable (in consumer contracts) otherwise they'd be unfair, a genuine reservation fee on the other hand can be non-refundable  

At £10 a head they could argue it's a reservation fee although as a whole £60 does sound a lot to reserve a table, the only defence against this is the following can be tested for fairness:

A term which has the object or effect of requiring that, where the consumer decides not to conclude or perform the contract, the consumer must pay the trader a disproportionately high sum in compensation or for services which have not been supplied.

Cancelling mid-October should them plenty of time to rebook, OP I'd be tempted to say, no worries we'll attend and see what they say, if they say you can't I'd push for my £60 back, if they say you can I assume there's no obligation to attend as that's what they say their £60 is for.... 

£10 a head deposit for tables is pretty much standard now round my way (west Wales) for groups of 6 or more on normal nights in restaurants. 

But that's to cover loss of revenue for no show on the day. Here they are cancelling well in advance.

DullGreyGuy

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:
Most "deposits" are advanced payments and yes I guess if that "deposit" matches the damages due resulting from breach of contract then it is effectively "non refundable" although I'm not sure how a restaurant can claim taking a(nother to replace OP which is likely at Xmas) table booking costs them £60, if a restaurant spent that kind of money simply for a customer to make a booking for a table these places wouldn't make any money.....

Yes, agree they are advance payments and covers no shows, late cancellations and not so late cancellations. In many walks of life this can be an average of the three, hence most insurers will charge you circa £50 to cancel the policy as its proportionate to the average loss which the regulators accept rather than saying your cancelling on day 351 and bought via X so its going to be £Y. Gives a simple clear and easily understood fee.

We are also taking about Xmas day, our local (generic chain pub) generally charges £14 for a meal any other day of the year but Xmas day is £65 a head. If they are unable to replace the booking the loss will be substantially more for losing 6 people's food and drink.

If they are like our pub they're probably already fully booked with a waiting list but it's not a quick or simple process, especially for a large table... do you keep it as 6? Can you move people around so can split it to a 2 and a 4? Are you willing to sell it as a 5 seater in which case again they've lost one heads food and drink which probably exceeds the fee. Our pub goes down the list, reaches out to the first one, tries to phone, leave a message, send an email, wait 24hrs if no response then move down the list and repeat. There is then often an angry call from those that didnt respond within 24hrs and so lost their chance plus return calls/emails from those who've made other arrangements already.

The cost isn't just the persons salary as if the person wasnt messing about having to ring round the waiting list they'd be selling/generating revenue.  £50/hr is a fairly standard ball park for admin type work, my client charges a lot more than this for its unqualified staff and wish our managing agent charged so little for our leasehold. Doesn't take long for all the above to hit 1hr 12 in total. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

The cost isn't just the persons salary as if the person wasnt messing about having to ring round the waiting list they'd be selling/generating revenue.  £50/hr is a fairly standard ball park for admin type work, my client charges a lot more than this for its unqualified staff and wish our managing agent charged so little for our leasehold. Doesn't take long for all the above to hit 1hr 12 in total. 

When my wife was the manager of an establishment she'd be expected to deal with something like, on top of everything else for which there often wasn't enough time in the day, she was on salary so was paid either way and everything had be done either way.

When she was head chef at a pub owned by a brewery the pub had a manager (for just that pub) who was paid an obscene salary, especially for a village pub, who seemed to spend most of his time talking to the customers so something like this would probably be dumped on someone being paid minimum wage to do on top of everything else they had to do.

It wouldn't surprise me if a business could come up with some fluff as to why it costs £60 but in reality it probably costs nothing, as with most things on here the side that can articulate themselves best has the greater chance of winning and this is probably one of those situations where that works against the consumer .