AirBNB - host seeking damages

MrChips

Hello - not sure which forum best suits this query, but here goes...

My wife travelled to Lisbon for a few days earlier this month with a friend and stayed in an apartment through AirBNB.  The stay was fine and they were happy with the accommodation and location.  They left the property in good condition including washing up after themselves and removing accumulated rubbish.

However as they were checking out and had their hands full with their suitcases on the final morning the front door shut behind them under its own weight with the solitary key still in the lock on the inside.  They had been locking the door at night from the inside for safety which is why it was still in there. Immediately realising what had happened, they contacted the host to explain and warn him.

Upon returning to the UK, the host has been in touch to explain that he had to employ a locksmith and that the resulting charge would be the guest's responsibility.

My wife has disputed responsibility with AirBNB on the basis that this design is an accident waiting to happen and she would have expected the host to either pre-warn against this eventuality and/or have an alternative means of entry (there is a patio door which could enable access from the rear).

I wasn't there myself so can offer no objective view on where responsibility should lay, however a couple of things have happened since which I would value wider input on.

First my wife was invited by AirBNB to challenge liability if she felt the charge was unjustified, which she did.  She got a response only five minutes after it was acknowledged to say AirBNB had 'carefully considered' her comments but were finding in favour of the host.  I struggle to see how anyone could carefully consider her rather lengthy response (which included attachments) in such a short time, not to mention also drafting and sending an email confirming the decision.

Further, my wife has also sought quotes from three Lisbon based locksmiths for how much they would charge to gain entry in such circumstances and they have all been in the range of 65-75 Euros.  The host has asked for her to pay £220 (i.e. about 270 Euros).

There is an option for her to take it a stage further and appeal AirBNB's decision, but before she does so, I was wondering if others had relevant experiences they could share, and whether she can expect AirBNB to actually read what she is sending?

Thanks!

mr_stripey

I too am not sure where ultimate responsibility lies but you would think that any host would have spare keys - it can't be that unusual for a guest to lose one (or lock themselves out). 

A reasonable charge for a replacement key would be ok I think.

SiliconChip

mr_stripey said:

I too am not sure where ultimate responsibility lies but you would think that any host would have spare keys - it can't be that unusual for a guest to lose one (or lock themselves out). 

A reasonable charge for a replacement key would be ok I think.

That's not the issue though, is it? Even if a spare key is available it can't be used as the original key is still in the lock on the inside of the locked door.

I've actually had this experience myself, with my own front door, and the only way to get back inside was to call out a locksmith, so the host's action seems perfectly reasonable to me, and it is the guest's responsibility. What I would dispute is the cost of calling out the locksmith, I'd be asking the host for justification of the figure that they have arrived and and counter it with the quotes obtained.

Flugelhorn

Honestly I should hope that someone has a spare key, unless of course they can't use it while there is another key in the other side of the lock?

note OP says there is a patio door at the back, does owner have key to that to get in?

if not then utterly silly system for an AirBNB - payment for a replacement key would be reasonable 

mr_stripey

SiliconChip said:

mr_stripey said:

I too am not sure where ultimate responsibility lies but you would think that any host would have spare keys - it can't be that unusual for a guest to lose one (or lock themselves out). 

A reasonable charge for a replacement key would be ok I think.

That's not the issue though, is it? Even if a spare key is available it can't be used as the original key is still in the lock on the inside of the locked door.

I've actually had this experience myself, with my own front door, and the only way to get back inside was to call out a locksmith, so the host's action seems perfectly reasonable to me, and it is the guest's responsibility. What I would dispute is the cost of calling out the locksmith, I'd be asking the host for justification of the figure that they have arrived and and counter it with the quotes obtained.

ah yes, of course! I didn't think about that. More, or perhaps less coffee needed this morning!

DullGreyGuy

The issue will probably have been that with the key in the lock that it cannot be opened from the outside hence the need of a locksmith. 

The patio doors we had a kid weren't unlockable from the outside as there were deadlocks top and bottom. So it's possible that that this is the same. There is also the question of if the back can be reached easily.

Sounds fully your wife's fault, she left the key in the lock, she allowed the door to close. Yes its annoying and when I found our front door needed a key to open it from the outside I changed it straight away because my wife would inevitably lock herself out but when renting you have to take it as found and adjust your behaviours. 

MrChips said:
Further, my wife has also sought quotes from three Lisbon based locksmiths for how much they would charge to gain entry in such circumstances and they have all been in the range of 65-75 Euros.  The host has asked for her to pay £220 (i.e. about 270 Euros).

Looking at a couple of locksmiths they are all charging significantly more than €65 just to get to the property let alone the time to remove the existing lock plus the supply of a replacement lock. Same as locksmiths here, if you get someone out on an emergency basis they dont charge the B&Q £30 for a replacement cylinder but something significantly inflated.

If you search on here you will find many threads of people paying £500+ for entry and replacement lock and so £220 seems a relative bargain. 

You could ask for an itemised bill but it really is what it is and you ultimately will pay up. 

Westin

Agree with the other comments.

You could ask for a copy of the locksmiths invoice to check the ‘high’ price. Equally it might have been a high charge for a prompt call out with perhaps other guests checking in that same day and the owner needing to gain access for cleaning.

Ultimately this was down to your wife and her mistake.  All you can really do is check the costs being asked for.

TELLIT01

As above, it was quite possibly an emergency callout for a locksmith because the place had to be cleaned and accessible to new occupants.

MrChips

Thanks everyone.  To confirm a few points raised:

- key was inside the lock on the inside, so I assume that meant a spare key would not have helped
- the patio door lock isn't key operated but according to the wife it would have been a fairly simple job for a locksmith to access
- quotes received (4 in total) range between 60 and 75 euros and all specify they relate to gaining access when the key is stuck in the lock on the other side.

Trying to be impartial, I tend to agree that ultimately the person using the door is responsible for using it as it is designed, albeit with this kind of lock it does seem to be a hazard that will repeat itself over time.

Hence, personally I would be inclined to pay up (the wife will only have to meet half the cost as it will be shared with her friend).  However, I do think the cost is worth challenging in the light of the multiple quotes indicating other locksmiths could do the job for a fraction of the fee.

I do also find Airbnb's ability to sift through all the details and find in favour of the host in a matter of seconds rather suspicious.  Seems likely no human judgement has been applied at all and either they default in favour of the host, or some sort of AI is involved which vastly simplifies what is quite a complex and nuanced situation.

TheSpectator

MrChips said:

Thanks everyone.  To confirm a few points raised:

- key was inside the lock on the inside, so I assume that meant a spare key would not have helped
- the patio door lock isn't key operated but according to the wife it would have been a fairly simple job for a locksmith to access
- quotes received (4 in total) range between 60 and 75 euros and all specify they relate to gaining access when the key is stuck in the lock on the other side.

Trying to be impartial, I tend to agree that ultimately the person using the door is responsible for using it as it is designed, albeit with this kind of lock it does seem to be a hazard that will repeat itself over time.

Hence, personally I would be inclined to pay up (the wife will only have to meet half the cost as it will be shared with her friend).  However, I do think the cost is worth challenging in the light of the multiple quotes indicating other locksmiths could do the job for a fraction of the fee.

I do also find Airbnb's ability to sift through all the details and find in favour of the host in a matter of seconds rather suspicious.  Seems likely no human judgement has been applied at all and either they default in favour of the host, or some sort of AI is involved which vastly simplifies what is quite a complex and nuanced situation.

Your wife is an expert on locksmith's and how easy a job it would be to access the patio door?

You aren't being impartial at all, as others have pointed out this was likely an emergency call out not standard. Do you know any locksmiths in the UK who will attend an emergency call out without a hefty fee?

I don't see anything suspicous about Airbnb's quick arbitration as, to me, it's pretty clear cut who is at fault, albeit a mistake any of us could have made.

By all means ask for the receipt other indirect costs may have come about because of the mistake

MrChips

I think you may have misunderstood the gist of what my last post was saying.  Unlike my wife who is adamant she wasn't at fault, I'm inclined to agree with the host that she and her friend were responsible.

Not being an expert on locksmiths was the very reason why she sought out alternative quotes.  If she or I were expert there would be no need to do that, or indeed to post the topic here.  It may be that some sort of "emergency" loading was applied - but that's for the host or Airbnb to confirm and if it's true I'm sure they will.  All we have is a series of quotes consistently coming out at 25% of the cost so I think it's fair to query this point as part of her challenge rather than make assumptions as to whether that's the underlying reason and the necessity of doing so.

You may not see anything suspicious in the timing, and maybe if it had taken a day or even a few hours I wouldn't either.  But five minutes to form a reasoned judgement (and draft a response, albeit bland) to written statements and attachments that set out counter arguments and challenge the cost suggests to me a rather automated process that pays lip service to "careful consideration".

Even on this post it's taken a fair amount of back and forth while enquiries have been made around whether access was possible via other means to reach a sort of consensus as to responsibility.