Security gone mad

eskbanker

Ballard said:

I dare say that we all encounter this issue and it can be a little frustrating but I can understand why banks put this on every transfer. Filtering certain payments could open them up to claims that they weren’t told to be careful.

Even if it’s an internal transfer to another of my accounts, what if someone else has POA on that account but not my main one (I’m making an assumption that this is feasible)? The bank would need to employ ever more complex arguments within their system to cover everything. It’s easier for them to just ask the question each time and know that they’ve complied. 

But generic boilerplate wording doesn't exempt firms from reimbursing customers under the new regulations, so it's the likes of the Confirmation of Payee checks that provide that protection:

The onus is on banks and payment firms to prove where customers have acted with gross negligence, through ignoring specific, tailored warnings or not responding to reasonable requests for information, for example

https://www.psr.org.uk/news-and-updates/latest-news/news/groundbreaking-new-protections-for-victims-of-app-scams-start-today/

In other words, routinely asking 'are you sure this isn't a scam?' every time wouldn't be a sufficiently granular question, but 'you said you wanted to pay X but that account is held by Y, so if you proceed then it's at your risk' is a different matter.

boingy

Don't you just know that the real scammers will quickly find ways around all that security and just leave the delays, interrogations and inconvenience to legitimate customers.

penners324

born_again said:

Nasqueron said:

If you'd done it in the app, it would go through fine normally, doing it over the phone will always invite extra questions and security per the various scams and bank liability

Santander APP now goes through all these questions. Even when paying into own accounts.
Which TBH, is how a lot of money is lost to fraudsters. 
Move to one of your own accounts & then moved out of there...

Better they do it in app than holding the payment and getting you to call them

Zopa_Trooper

Well I was only commenting because they asked me to open the account, sanctioned it, gave me the account number, then verified the account number, could see that £4000 was being transferred from a SANTANDER current account in my name to a SANTANDER saver account in my name, all within the app that I had to use my fingerprint in order to access. Isn't the truth its all automated so no actual human is even involved?

eDicky

Zopa_Trooper said:

Isn't the truth its all automated so no actual human is even involved?

Yes, in the first instance at least it's all automated, no other way. Which would be fine, if their systems and algorithms involved were actually fit for purpose. They obviously are not, illustrated by your story and all the others recounted here. Meanwhile the instances of fraud continues to rise...

friolento

Ballard said:

I dare say that we all encounter this issue and it can be a little frustrating but I can understand why banks put this on every transfer. Filtering certain payments could open them up to claims that they weren’t told to be careful.

Even if it’s an internal transfer to another of my accounts, what if someone else has POA on that account but not my main one (I’m making an assumption that this is feasible)? The bank would need to employ ever more complex arguments within their system to cover everything. It’s easier for them to just ask the question each time and know that they’ve complied. 

I have never had any internal transfers held for further checks. Still waiting for the OP to clarify whether they made an internal transfer or a payment.

eskbanker

eDicky said:

Zopa_Trooper said:

Isn't the truth its all automated so no actual human is even involved?

Yes, in the first instance at least it's all automated, no other way. Which would be fine, if their systems and algorithms involved were actually fit for purpose. They obviously are not, illustrated by your story and all the others recounted here. Meanwhile the instances of fraud continues to rise...

Not according to UK Finance:

Ballard

eskbanker said:

Ballard said:

I dare say that we all encounter this issue and it can be a little frustrating but I can understand why banks put this on every transfer. Filtering certain payments could open them up to claims that they weren’t told to be careful.

Even if it’s an internal transfer to another of my accounts, what if someone else has POA on that account but not my main one (I’m making an assumption that this is feasible)? The bank would need to employ ever more complex arguments within their system to cover everything. It’s easier for them to just ask the question each time and know that they’ve complied. 

But generic boilerplate wording doesn't exempt firms from reimbursing customers under the new regulations, so it's the likes of the Confirmation of Payee checks that provide that protection:

The onus is on banks and payment firms to prove where customers have acted with gross negligence, through ignoring specific, tailored warnings or not responding to reasonable requests for information, for example

https://www.psr.org.uk/news-and-updates/latest-news/news/groundbreaking-new-protections-for-victims-of-app-scams-start-today/

In other words, routinely asking 'are you sure this isn't a scam?' every time wouldn't be a sufficiently granular question, but 'you said you wanted to pay X but that account is held by Y, so if you proceed then it's at your risk' is a different matter.

I actually agree with you and my comment was more that if they’re providing warnings it’s very difficult to tailor them to each transfer so it’s broadly an all or nothing approach. Perhaps the advent of more advanced AI will provide room for them to give more bespoke warnings. 

born_again

eskbanker said:

born_again said:

Nasqueron said:

If you'd done it in the app, it would go through fine normally, doing it over the phone will always invite extra questions and security per the various scams and bank liability

Santander APP now goes through all these questions. Even when paying into own accounts.
Which TBH, is how a lot of money is lost to fraudsters. 
Move to one of your own accounts & then moved out of there...

Are you referring to their measures to combat APP (Authorised Push Payment) scams or just their app (i.e. the software on phones, etc)?

Just the Phone APP, do not use the online banking enough to say about that side.

wiseonesomeofthetime

friolento said:

Ballard said:

I dare say that we all encounter this issue and it can be a little frustrating but I can understand why banks put this on every transfer. Filtering certain payments could open them up to claims that they weren’t told to be careful.

Even if it’s an internal transfer to another of my accounts, what if someone else has POA on that account but not my main one (I’m making an assumption that this is feasible)? The bank would need to employ ever more complex arguments within their system to cover everything. It’s easier for them to just ask the question each time and know that they’ve complied. 

I have never had any internal transfers held for further checks. Still waiting for the OP to clarify whether they made an internal transfer or a payment.

It does smack more of a payment to a new payee  security approach than an internal transfer between accounts  one to me too.