Please help choose: WB Greenstar 4000 or Vaillant ecoTec Plus 832 combis.

ThisIsWeird

I've yet to hear back from Vaillant...

Sooo, the WB 'Easy' controls - is it pot luck, user-error, just too clever for its own good, or is it really too problem-ridden to consider?

If not WB's own controls, which is second best to go for?

FreeBear

ThisIsWeird said:

I've yet to hear back from Vaillant...

Sooo, the WB 'Easy' controls - is it pot luck, user-error, just too clever for its own good, or is it really too problem-ridden to consider?

If not WB's own controls, which is second best to go for?

My first choice would be ESP-EMS linked to Home Assistant - Not being tied to a particular control manufacturer means you can pick & choose which "smarts" to add. Also means you are not reliant on a remote server for your app data. But HA can have a steep learning curve and isn't for everyone.

ThisIsWeird

Thanks, but wow.
Is that really layfolk-compatible?
Is 'Easy' really that bad? Aren't most of the reviewed issues to do with giving it too much control? Can't some of that autonomy be dialled out, so it functions more like a 'normal' Prog Stat? Ie, compromise a wee bit on its ultimate effectiveness, to get it decently working?
Is there no 3rd party alternative that gets close - Ie, is easier and more reliable in operation, so worth it if it isn't quite as overall 'efficient'?

ThisIsWeird

Well, Vaillant finally got back to me after a number of failed attempts via WhatsApp.

They have their own systems - senso-COMFORT, HOME, and ROOM, but they no longer do Smart TRVs, surely the ultimate in control? Pffft.

I've now asked if they can recommend a 3rd-party system that uses eBUS and has TRVs - I'm not really expecting an answer.

So, what would folk on here recommend, please - that doesn't require a physics degree?

If this was my choice, I'd probably go W-B and their Easy system, and try and sort out any issues if they occur - laying it firmly on WB's door to do so if needed - but ultimately prepared to disable whatever is causing any problems until they are resolved - weather-comp, for example. But, yes, that's pretty pants.

Or just forget these two manufacturers and go Veissman or similar? Which reputable boiler manufacturer also provides a properly connected and functioning control system to get the best out of their boilers?!

moneysaver1978

I have a WB Greenstar Junior 24i combi so not quite the 4000 but it works fine with the Hive (which came with the house).

I was looking into replacing the Hive with a Tado (non-OpenTherm sadly) as the house didn't come with a hub and during my research I found this: https://community.screwfix.com/threads/query-on-worcester-bosch-greenstar-4000-modulation-and-which-smart-thermostat-to-choose.267197/#:~:text=Worcester do not support opentherm,on which setting you choose which coincidently talks about the same boiler your friend is considering.

Even though I am not a huge fan of Hive, but given that I already have one, I just need to purchase a hub along with TRVs, that might suffice for our needs. Is your friend vested in something other than Hive ecosystem?

But I agree, it's annoying that the boilers don't have a standard. If EU are forcing Apple to adopt the usb-c standards, why can they not do the same for the boiler folks! 

ThisIsWeird

moneysaver1978 said:

I have a WB Greenstar Junior 24i combi so not quite the 4000 but it works fine with the Hive (which came with the house).
I was looking into replacing the Hive with a Tado (non-OpenTherm sadly) as the house didn't come with a hub and during my research I found this: https://community.screwfix.com/threads/query-on-worcester-bosch-greenstar-4000-modulation-and-which-smart-thermostat-to-choose.267197/#:~:text=Worcester do not support opentherm,on which setting you choose which coincidently talks about the same boiler your friend is considering.
Even though I am not a huge fan of Hive, but given that I already have one, I just need to purchase a hub along with TRVs, that might suffice for our needs. Is your friend vested in something other than Hive ecosystem?
But I agree, it's annoying that the boilers don't have a standard. If EU are forcing Apple to adopt the usb-c standards, why can they not do the same for the boiler folks! 

Absolute absurdity that there isn't a standard control protocol, especially when the boiler manufacturers themselves seemingly cannot get their act together to provide a solid and reliable piece of kit that'll take full advantage of their boiler's efficiency.

WB make an EMS-system, and have what appears to be an attractive and comprehensive control kit. But, it's seemingly plagued with issues, often caused by their weather comp solution? Possibly this can largely be overcome if set to the 'load-compensation' option rather than 'weather-comp'? If so, it would still remain one of the most attractive options as it should still provide full modulation of the boiler, whilst not being hugely more costly than, say, Hive. And it should carry the same 12-year warranty as the boiler.

So, I think that would be my tentative recommendation to my friend.

Vaillant 'no longer' do Smart TRVs, so a complete 3rd-party system would be needed, with all the worms that brings. (Unless someone has found an ideal arrangement?)

MS1978, I have a Hive system, too, and it works great with my old GlowWorm which only has built-in modulation. It is far more simple to set up using the App, and I do also use the remote heating feature a fair bit - if we are, say, visiting mil, I can then set the temp up before we head back home. It's pretty basic, but it works.

I also have one of their Smart TRVs for the main bedroom, and that also works well. It can be set to just open'close under instruction, or to also turn the boiler on. I have it set for the former, as I only expect the bedroom to be heated if the rest of the house is ditto.

moneysaver1978

ThisIsWeird said:

moneysaver1978 said:

I have a WB Greenstar Junior 24i combi so not quite the 4000 but it works fine with the Hive (which came with the house).
I was looking into replacing the Hive with a Tado (non-OpenTherm sadly) as the house didn't come with a hub and during my research I found this: https://community.screwfix.com/threads/query-on-worcester-bosch-greenstar-4000-modulation-and-which-smart-thermostat-to-choose.267197/#:~:text=Worcester do not support opentherm,on which setting you choose which coincidently talks about the same boiler your friend is considering.
Even though I am not a huge fan of Hive, but given that I already have one, I just need to purchase a hub along with TRVs, that might suffice for our needs. Is your friend vested in something other than Hive ecosystem?
But I agree, it's annoying that the boilers don't have a standard. If EU are forcing Apple to adopt the usb-c standards, why can they not do the same for the boiler folks! 

Absolute absurdity that there isn't a standard control protocol, especially when the boiler manufacturers themselves seemingly cannot get their act together to provide a solid and reliable piece of kit that'll take full advantage of their boiler's efficiency.

WB make an EMS-system, and have what appears to be an attractive and comprehensive control kit. But, it's seemingly plagued with issues, often caused by their weather comp solution? Possibly this can largely be overcome if set to the 'load-compensation' option rather than 'weather-comp'? If so, it would still remain one of the most attractive options as it should still provide full modulation of the boiler, whilst not being hugely more costly than, say, Hive. And it should carry the same 12-year warranty as the boiler.

So, I think that would be my tentative recommendation to my friend.

Vaillant 'no longer' do Smart TRVs, so a complete 3rd-party system would be needed, with all the worms that brings. (Unless someone has found an ideal arrangement?)

MS1978, I have a Hive system, too, and it works great with my old GlowWorm which only has built-in modulation. It is far more simple to set up using the App, and I do also use the remote heating feature a fair bit - if we are, say, visiting mil, I can then set the temp up before we head back home. It's pretty basic, but it works.

I also have one of their Smart TRVs for the main bedroom, and that also works well. It can be set to just open'close under instruction, or to also turn the boiler on. I have it set for the former, as I only expect the bedroom to be heated if the rest of the house is ditto.

If that helps to clinch the "deal", Hive has a Black Friday sale on and I am quite tempted by the £48 hub plus TRVs (£47 odd) although I learned late last night there's a 50% off discount for Octopus customers.

ThisIsWeird

moneysaver1978 said:

If that helps to clinch the "deal", Hive has a Black Friday sale on and I am quite tempted by the £48 hub plus TRVs (£47 odd) although I learned late last night there's a 50% off discount for Octopus customers.

Hive doesn't have modulation control, tho', so is effectively a nice on/off Prog Stat. Ideal for my boiler, and probably yours, too, but really not good enough for a modern fully-modulating boiler.

These prices aren't the sale ones?

If you need a new Prog Stat too, then the MINI is much cheaper and neater, and works the same from the phone App.

You know Hive have this daft thing of tying the purchaser to their Hub - you cannot leave it behind if you move? Sneaky - it means the new owner will need to buy their own Hub, and also that you will likely continue with Hive in your new house since you've already forked out for your Hub! I set up a new Gmail account in my house's name, and have just the Hive tied to that - so it's staying. :-)

(EDIT: That policy has seemingly been updated).

moneysaver1978

ThisIsWeird said:

moneysaver1978 said:

If that helps to clinch the "deal", Hive has a Black Friday sale on and I am quite tempted by the £48 hub plus TRVs (£47 odd) although I learned late last night there's a 50% off discount for Octopus customers.

Hive doesn't have modulation control, tho', so is effectively a nice on/off Prog Stat. Ideal for my boiler, and probably yours, too, but really not good enough for a modern fully-modulating boiler.

These prices aren't the sale ones?

If you need a new Prog Stat too, then the MINI is much cheaper and neater, and works the same from the phone App.

You know Hive have this daft thing of tying the purchaser to their Hub - you cannot leave it behind if you move? Sneaky - it means the new owner will need to buy their own Hub, and also that you will likely continue with Hive in your new house since you've already forked out for your Hub! I set up a new Gmail account in my house's name, and have just the Hive tied to that - so it's staying. :-)

That was my original thought too and they had a "good" reputation of discontinuing devices making them useless which was why I was looking replacing the Hive "dumb" thermostat with a full Tado system but priorities and costs!

That said, I was proven wrong about the hub in this thread: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81112911/#Comment_81112911 which is making me reconsider.

FreeBear

ThisIsWeird said:

moneysaver1978 said:

I have a WB Greenstar Junior 24i combi so not quite the 4000 but it works fine with the Hive (which came with the house).
I was looking into replacing the Hive with a Tado (non-OpenTherm sadly) as the house didn't come with a hub and during my research I found this: https://community.screwfix.com/threads/query-on-worcester-bosch-greenstar-4000-modulation-and-which-smart-thermostat-to-choose.267197/#:~:text=Worcester do not support opentherm,on which setting you choose which coincidently talks about the same boiler your friend is considering.
Even though I am not a huge fan of Hive, but given that I already have one, I just need to purchase a hub along with TRVs, that might suffice for our needs. Is your friend vested in something other than Hive ecosystem?
But I agree, it's annoying that the boilers don't have a standard. If EU are forcing Apple to adopt the usb-c standards, why can they not do the same for the boiler folks! 

Absolute absurdity that there isn't a standard control protocol, especially when the boiler manufacturers themselves seemingly cannot get their act together to provide a solid and reliable piece of kit that'll take full advantage of their boiler's efficiency.

And even when there is a "standard", not all manufacturers follow it. The OpenTherm specification lays out a bunch of boiler messages that are labeled as mandatory - Interesting stuff like pump & burner run time... Viessmann only implement a subset of these mandatory messages.

It also appears that at least one manufacturer (Daikin) use an undocumented message to set the DHW temperature <grrrr>. I suspect Version 5 of the OT specification allows for manufacturers to implement "custom" messages, but for basic control, I have to ask why...