Can someone help me with a couple questions regarding my loft extension quote?

Section62

gzoom said:

JadeHighland said:

I've not been involved in a large building project before. From what I understand, once I've chosen a builder, that's when I/we commission architects, engineers etc to come out and do official drawings. This is all very much first meetings. 

As others have said for loft conversions I would have thought a decent builder will know the regs can make recommendations on work needed without the expense of architects/structural engineers. 

We went down the architect route first, they produced drawings in conjunction with a structural survey and recommended 3 different builders who they had worked with. But our project was a massive demotion and rebuilt. 

The same builders we used is now working on my inlaws house, their ask is much smaller, move a few rooms around, new roof etc. So they are going without any drawings etc.

The builders prefers to have drawings but we spend £10k on architect fees/drawings/surveys before a single bit of building works started, for our project that cost was sub 3% of the total project cost, where as for my inlaws if would be near 20% so made zero sense to go down the architect route.

I would say the money we spent on the architect was worth every single penny, the vision they created was simply amazing. Nor me, the builder, or any of the trades would have laid out the space in our home the way the architect had done. But everyone who comes to the house loves the way all the spaces work and connect, and the first comment everyone makes isn't how good our builders have built the house, but we must have found a really good architect.

So budget pending, a chat with a good architect maybe worth your while......

The bits in bold above risk misleading people.

Some builders know the regulations well and can give good advice, but many more only have a vague idea of the regulations, and will work in the way they've always done it because they don't know any better.  The OP has experienced this already with a builder who talks about what they "might get away with" in relation to fire doors.

Loft conversion projects are generally far more complicated than they first appear - there is almost always structural work needed, and the regulations to keep people safe (e.g. regarding the spread of fire and smoke) can be hard to understand and harder to implement correctly.

The cost of using an architect - and particularly a structural engineer - shouldn't be seen as an "expense" to be avoided, but rather as an opportunity to end up with a better outcome than you might otherwise get, and in the case of anything structural, vital to make sure the job is done properly.  The builder's back of envelope sketches the OP has shared demonstrate well how much of a risk you take if you rely only on builders for advice when you plan a complicated project.

That risk extends to the fact that without drawings you are working on the basis of hope that the builder does what you want.  Drawings should form part of the contract for anything but the most basic building projects.  If the project doesn't turn out like you hoped, the lack of drawings makes it difficult to challenge the builder and/or take legal action. With loft conversions in particular it can be difficult to get headroom and means of access/egress right even if you have access to professional 3D design software... a builder making it up in their head as they go isn't a reliable technique.

The cost of professional services as a percentage of the project cost isn't what people should be using to decide whether to use an architect and/or SE.  Your inlaws 20% figure could be perfectly reasonable - and as building control would need to be involved having professionally produced drawings might help minimise the risk of things going wrong later.  Your sub 3% figure is likely that low because - absolutely no offence intended - you've opted for very expensive methods of constructing space, and then finished them to an exceptionally high standard, and it was a big project to start with.

The need for professional help depends on the nature and complexity of the project, coupled with the client's knowledge and experience of the type of project planned.  The OP says they haven't been involved in a big project like this before: converting a loft in a compact house is a complex project.  Allocating a double-digit percentage of the overall project budget in order to get professional advice wouldn't be a bad thing to do.

For the OP's situation I think an architectural/design professional will become a must have.

Mistral001

Usually the best outcomes happen when design come before building.  The OP seems to think it can happen all at the same time, or that builders are also designers.

gzoom

Section62 said:

For the OP's situation I think an architectural/design professional will become a must have.

I guess it all depends on OPs budget. Spending say £10k on drawings etc if the total build budget is £50k it's pretty much pointless, as £40k for major building works wouldn't get you very far.

Section62

gzoom said:

Section62 said:

For the OP's situation I think an architectural/design professional will become a must have.

I guess it all depends on OPs budget. Spending say £10k on drawings etc if the total build budget is £50k it's pretty much pointless, as £40k for major building works wouldn't get you very far.

It isn't just "drawings" though.

If the OP's job needs £10k of professional advice (including preparation of drawings) and the works cost will be (say) £60k then if their available budget is £60k then the answer is not to skip the professional advice and hope for the best, the answer is to revisit whether the project is affordable to them full stop.

The risk involved in skipping the £10k is getting 50% into the project and then discovering it will cost a total of £80k to finish it.  You don't have the money, so you end up living in a half-completed building site until you either (1) scrape enough money together to finish the work off or (2) end up selling the property taking a big financial hit because half-built loft extensions are not sought after.

The tighter the budget you have to start with, the more important it is to spend a reasonable proportion of the money you do have on getting good professional advice.

If budget savings are needed then the better place to make them is with the things that come towards the end stages of the project, not the planning at the start.  Reducing the costs of fitting out, finishes and decoration carries less risk than winging it with structural engineering.  Unfortunately many novice clients overspend on the bits that can be seen simply because they are the bits they and their friends will see, without understanding that savings on the basics (like getting building control signoff) exposes them to risk and can result in sub-optimal outcomes.

JadeHighland

This is all sounding quite complex. I just assumed a loft conversion specialist company will pretty much handle everything from start to finish. More research needed I guess. 

fluffymuffy

I've designed about 7 or 8 loft conversions in the last 10 years. In my area, Midlands, I would expect £6k to cover design fees for both architect and engineer and also statutory fees. Build costs for a typical loft conversion would be about £80k. This is not desirable work for designers or builders. I no longer undertake this type of work as it is a thankless task.

Albermarle

I think a proper specialist loft conversion company, would do everything for you ( at a price). However you seem to have got quotes from builders, so you will need to get more specialist input.
When we had ours done, the builder we favoured recommended a local architect to go to.

Doozergirl

Albermarle said:

I think a proper specialist loft conversion company, would do everything for you ( at a price). However you seem to have got quotes from builders, so you will need to get more specialist input.
When we had ours done, the builder we favoured recommended a local architect to go to.

They got quotes from "Loft Conversion Specialists".  

If the OP is anxious then I think that an architect is where they need to go.  Full spec and drawings and then get builders to quote from a proper plan.