New Car Purchase: Petrol or Hybrid?

Goudy

WellKnownSid said:

Goudy said:

WellKnownSid said:

 The hybrid we bought was a Jogger - fits the entire family in it and makes light work of long distances.  The power delivery means it'll happily see boy racers in their diesel A3s off the lights which no Dacia has a right to do

Since then diesel has pretty much disappeared from most (but not all) line ups and the options are petrol or hybrid or EV, with the EV's now being the costly option.

Although Dacia's only electric vehicle is also one of the cheapest new cars on the market now - £14,995
https://youtu.be/T-BZ-SB10q8?si=HnYyKFG6qZanwykT

Yes that particular model does buck the trend a little but still more expensive than a petrol Sandero, you can have one of those for £13,795 in base spec.(In Dacia speak, £1,230 difference is pretty large)

Even the mid level trim Sandero is cheaper at £14,795.

Oh and you can no longer buy a diesel like you used to.

So diesels are disappearing and EV's do cost more.

You can of course buy an electric quadracycle for around £7695, but it's certainly not a car.

WellKnownSid

Goudy said:

WellKnownSid said:

Goudy said:

WellKnownSid said:

 The hybrid we bought was a Jogger - fits the entire family in it and makes light work of long distances.  The power delivery means it'll happily see boy racers in their diesel A3s off the lights which no Dacia has a right to do

Since then diesel has pretty much disappeared from most (but not all) line ups and the options are petrol or hybrid or EV, with the EV's now being the costly option.

Although Dacia's only electric vehicle is also one of the cheapest new cars on the market now - £14,995
https://youtu.be/T-BZ-SB10q8?si=HnYyKFG6qZanwykT

So diesels are disappearing and EV's do cost more.

My son doesn't think so - he filled his diesel up the other night - just short of £90.  He asked me how much to fill the Zoe up on our new tariff - £2.82.  Of course, his car will no doubt go 3 times further on that top-up but still...

What Dacia have done is sensible with the Spring - produce a car with a half-sized battery and 130-ish miles of range - for half the price.  Despite every motorist claiming that they have to cover 900 miles on the M6 every Friday night to see the in-laws, I reckon that'll probably cover 50% of the country's motoring needs, especially in cities.  Clearly not for everyone, but a sensible, practical alternative proposition.

Goudy

At todays prices, your son's put about 60 litres in or around 13 gallons.
At an average of 50 mpg, that's 650 miles.

A Springs battery is 26.8 kWh and it's claimed range is around 130 miles.
That's not 3 times, it's 5 times as far.

Better/worse still, at around 4 hours per charge at 7kw that the cheapest Spring can charge at, that's 20 hours in total to cover the same mileage.
(yes the more expensive version has a 30kw charger)
You just can't compare the two vehicles like this.


Between the Spring and the Sandero, over four years on 6000 miles per year, the difference is around £1300 in cost/depreciation between the two in favour of the Sandero,

£1300 is 970 litres (213 gallons) at todays prices.
As of next April, there's nothing in it VED wise, so the difference wouldn't be massive over 48 months.

I agree the Spring has a market but to break even compared to a Sandero, you've have to do more than 10,000 miles in the Spring that at best does 130 miles for every 4 hours on a charger.

That will suit some, but not as many as you think, it's really is a one trick pony as the possibility of a "splash and dash" on a longer trip isn't really on the cards.

Herzlos

Goudy said:

I agree the Spring has a market but to break even compared to a Sandero, you've have to do more than 10,000 miles in the Spring that at best does 130 miles for every 4 hours on a charger.

4 hours from a driveway charger. 38 minutes from a fast charger.

It's certainly not a road warrior car but it'll do most people most of the time.
I can't imagine the Sandero would be particularly comfortable on a road trip either.

Goudy

There are two different Spring 45 and the Spring 65 , the basic "45" one at £14,995 only has a 7kw inbuilt charger.

So 7kw and a 27kwh battery, as Dacia say, you do the math. 

That's "fast" charging for this model as it's the fastest it can charge at.

Herzlos said:

Goudy said:

I agree the Spring has a market but to break even compared to a Sandero, you've have to do more than 10,000 miles in the Spring that at best does 130 miles for every 4 hours on a charger.

It's certainly not a road warrior car but it'll do most people most of the time.
I can't imagine the Sandero would be particularly comfortable on a road trip either.

Not sure how you came to those conclusions.

How do you know it will suit most, most of the time.
That's a very bold claim to back up.

There are 41 million vehicles on the UK roads of which around 31 million are cars and you are saying a 45hp, 27kwh EV that takes 4 hours to charge and has a max range of around 130 miles is suitable for most of them?

Dacia have sold 140,000 Springs worldwide since 2021, sales don't seem to back that claim up as the Sandero sold 143,500 in the first 6 months of this year alone.

It's not just me that's disagreeing with that statement, the actual car buying public are. 
I'm sure young families are queuing to strap their kids into the back of a car that scores a frighteningly low 56% for child occupancy safety and a dismal and by todays standards a totally unacceptable 49% for adults. 

The new Sandero platform is based on the CMF-B LS platform from 2020.
They are no longer warmed up leftovers from the 1990's.
They have modern chassis and modern engines and score far higher in adult and child safety ratings, 50% higher.

The Dacia Spring is actually older, it's platform is the CMF-A that's already 10 years old.
The Spring is a rebadge of the Renault City K-ZE, which is an electric version of the Renault Kwid. 
This is a sub continent model built in India and Latin America and been on the market for a decade already.
Judging by the NCAP scores I would say that's a decade too long for our market.

Herzlos

Ah, I'd missed that the DC charging is optional on the 65 version only.

As for whether it'd suit most people most of the time? It's just maths. The average UK car does 18 miles a day. Even at 1mph it's parked somewhere for at least 6 hours.

So for the average user, they'd only need to charge maybe twice a week.

Apparently, less than 5% of cars do more than 15k miles/year, or 41 miles/day. So most people could use a car with 140 miles range (even assuming it's only 100 miles real world) whilst charging every other day.

Using a quick sampling of the people I know the driving patterns for, a 100 mile EV would be fine for most of them most of the time. Even a handful of people with 40 mile commutes would be fine. If you look at households with 2 cars it's pretty unlikely both drivers need to do more than 100 miles in a single day.

A 4 hour charging time would be horrific on a long journey, but if you're charging overnight it doesn't make a real difference. For people doing long journeys, it'd presumably be worth upgrading to the 65 (for £1000) plus whatever the DC charger costs, which I can't see on the configuration tool. Though for £1000 it may be less hassle to just rent a bigger petrol car.

As for sales data, I'm not sure. It didn't sell as well as the Sandero, but I've not seen any figures on where it's actually been sold so far other than Europe. It only went on sale in the UK in October.

Goudy

A quick sample of the people I know and those that are immediately around me would find it totally useless for a variety of reasons.

I can think of 100,000 drivers within a 15 mile radius of me that only do short local trips and would find one of these Springs worse than useless.
Surprisingly most of these 100,000 are already EV drivers at the moment.

I'm sure the Spring has a market, but not one that includes most or even the "average" driver. 

Even at this budget price, it's too limited.
That's a complaint for most small EVs, at least until battery densities increase.

Yes they find a few owners, but the ICE/Hybrid alternatives just aren't as limited and owners choose them more often even if they don't need the range. 

People don't like to give up a right or an option even if they don't need to utilise them, it's in our nature.
At the moment ICE/Hybrid vehicles and some EV's offer what they have been used too for donkey's years and that's what they buy.

I am sure most EV owners on this forum have battery capacity/range to spare and would be loathed to give any of it up.
In fact I wouldn't be surprised most owners on their second or third EV have increased battery capacity/range between models even though their trips haven't increased.
Dare I suggest give up the range, buy a Spring then hire a ICE when needed?

Herzlos

Goudy said:
I can think of 100,000 drivers within a 15 mile radius of me that only do short local trips and would find one of these Springs worse than useless.

Why? If they already have EV's it's not about access to chargers.

For the OP (who was chased off long ago), I agree that hiring a car may be an option, though a straighforward petrol car would likely be easier.

Goudy

Herzlos said:

Goudy said:
I can think of 100,000 drivers within a 15 mile radius of me that only do short local trips and would find one of these Springs worse than useless.

Why? If they already have EV's it's not about access to chargers.

Public hire vehicles.
There's close to 100,000 now in London, mainly EVs that do short trips, though a few still use hybrids.
130 miles for 4 hours charging and limited space, they'd soon be out of work.

born_again

Goudy said:

I am sure most EV owners on this forum have battery capacity/range to spare and would be loathed to give any of it up.
In fact I wouldn't be surprised most owners on their second or third EV have increased battery capacity/range between models even though their trips haven't increased.
Dare I suggest give up the range, buy a Spring then hire a ICE when needed?

Maybe, but would require a car to have the ability to carry a wheelchair.
Niro has 300 miles range for me. Only ever do more than this on holiday. Rest of year, look at a average of 30 mile trips, maybe 2 or 3 times a week. 
But I know I can charge as & when I want. With no pressure.

Daughter got a E-Mini. Effective range 100 miles for her. Great while working from home. Now has to go to office 3 days a week. 30 miles there & back. So needs charging every other day in reality to ensure a margin. 
After a couple of weeks this became a PIA. So swapped it in for a BYD with 265 mile range. Now needs a charge every 2 weeks. Far better.

Spring would be OK for a 2nd car or someone that only ever goes to shops & back. 
Yes you can do longer trips, but it soon becomes a pain having to constantly charge even at home.

Would never go back to petrol or Hybrid. But that's me.