Casual Worker Administrative Duties Pay

Agencytransfer

My employer previously paid for time spent carrying out administrative duties such as submitting timecards. Due to budgetary concerns, they are changing this and are asking we don't log the time for this.

Chat GPT suggests that under the National Minimum Wage Act 1998:

"Work" includes all tasks performed as part of your job, even if they aren't directly related to your main duties. This would typically cover time spent submitting timesheets or timecards.

Working Time Regulations 1998
Working time includes activities like recording hours worked, submitting timecards, and other administrative tasks required by the employer.

Under the **Working Time Regulations 1998**, any task performed at the employer’s request, including administrative duties like submitting timecards, qualifies as "working time." This means your employer is legally required to pay you for the time spent on such tasks, regardless of budgetary constraints. Failure to do so would breach both the WTR and the National Minimum Wage Act 1998, which mandate compensation for all hours worked.

Can I have some support on this please? Should this time be paid?

Does anyone know any relevant sections of these acts please?

Thank you

Brie

They are asking you to not log time for this or demanding that you don't?  Is this something that is done extra to the hours you work?  What happens if you don't submit timecards?  Does that mean you don't get paid?  What would happen if the time you spent submitting time cards was absorbed into the other time you spent working?  (i.e. not listed as a separate work item)

Savvy_Sue

Is this your own timecard, or submitting other people's? If it's just yours, how long does it take?

My memory of when we had agency temps in was that they'd submit the timesheet to the manager, and we'd submit it to the agency once we'd approved it. Possibly they submitted to the agency AND to the manager at the same time, but nothing would be paid until we had approved it. Even when there was a query over the hours submitted, it did not take more than 5 minutes to sort it out. 

DullGreyGuy

Agencytransfer said:

My employer previously paid for time spent carrying out administrative duties such as submitting timecards. Due to budgetary concerns, they are changing this and are asking we don't log the time for this.

Chat GPT suggests that under the National Minimum Wage Act 1998:

"Work" includes all tasks performed as part of your job, even if they aren't directly related to your main duties. This would typically cover time spent submitting timesheets or timecards.

Working Time Regulations 1998
Working time includes activities like recording hours worked, submitting timecards, and other administrative tasks required by the employer.

Under the **Working Time Regulations 1998**, any task performed at the employer’s request, including administrative duties like submitting timecards, qualifies as "working time." This means your employer is legally required to pay you for the time spent on such tasks, regardless of budgetary constraints. Failure to do so would breach both the WTR and the National Minimum Wage Act 1998, which mandate compensation for all hours worked.

Can I have some support on this please? Should this time be paid?

Does anyone know any relevant sections of these acts please?

Thank you

NMW legislation doesn't say you have to be paid for everything you have to do for "work". What it does say is when checking your being paid at least NMW per hour you have to include everything it defines as work and then divide that into the amount you were paid to test against the minimum wage level.

So lets say a company was paying £15 per hour for you to talk to customers but doesn't pay you for toilet breaks or wrap up time whilst your writing up notes etc which takes up 10% of your time. May be bad for morale etc but not "illegal" as that means you're really being paid £13.64/hr but NMW is £11.44 so you are still way above NMW so all is good. 

WTR are similar, sets maximum working times, unless you waive your rights. Whilst they may not pay you for some work the limit is still 48 hours a week 

Agencytransfer

Brie said:

They are asking you to not log time for this or demanding that you don't?  Is this something that is done extra to the hours you work?  What happens if you don't submit timecards?  Does that mean you don't get paid?  What would happen if the time you spent submitting time cards was absorbed into the other time you spent working?  (i.e. not listed as a separate work item)

• They are requesting that I don’t log those hours - ‘can I therefore request’
• Yes
• I would not be paid. I think they also sometimes look over time cards to look at where time is being spent for evaluation of the role
• Yes, wouldn’t be paid
• We are told to log all activities separately on the time card and due to the nature of the role do not tend to work set patterns - I.e. 9-5, 1-5. It’s more an hour here and there and hours across the week are not usually more than part time work. It’s basically remote (mainly) project work.

Savvy_Sue said:

Is this your own timecard, or submitting other people's? If it's just yours, how long does it take?

My memory of when we had agency temps in was that they'd submit the timesheet to the manager, and we'd submit it to the agency once we'd approved it. Possibly they submitted to the agency AND to the manager at the same time, but nothing would be paid until we had approved it. Even when there was a query over the hours submitted, it did not take more than 5 minutes to sort it out. 

Just my own
Varies - as sometimes need to also submit expense receipts. Generally less than 30 minutes. Normally more than 10. Often around the 20 mark.
Submit to A & M at same time, nothing paid until M approves.

DullGreyGuy said:

Agencytransfer said:

My employer previously paid for time spent carrying out administrative duties such as submitting timecards. Due to budgetary concerns, they are changing this and are asking we don't log the time for this.

Chat GPT suggests that under the National Minimum Wage Act 1998:

"Work" includes all tasks performed as part of your job, even if they aren't directly related to your main duties. This would typically cover time spent submitting timesheets or timecards.

Working Time Regulations 1998
Working time includes activities like recording hours worked, submitting timecards, and other administrative tasks required by the employer.

Under the **Working Time Regulations 1998**, any task performed at the employer’s request, including administrative duties like submitting timecards, qualifies as "working time." This means your employer is legally required to pay you for the time spent on such tasks, regardless of budgetary constraints. Failure to do so would breach both the WTR and the National Minimum Wage Act 1998, which mandate compensation for all hours worked.

Can I have some support on this please? Should this time be paid?

Does anyone know any relevant sections of these acts please?

Thank you

NMW legislation doesn't say you have to be paid for everything you have to do for "work". What it does say is when checking your being paid at least NMW per hour you have to include everything it defines as work and then divide that into the amount you were paid to test against the minimum wage level.

So lets say a company was paying £15 per hour for you to talk to customers but doesn't pay you for toilet breaks or wrap up time whilst your writing up notes etc which takes up 10% of your time. May be bad for morale etc but not "illegal" as that means you're really being paid £13.64/hr but NMW is £11.44 so you are still way above NMW so all is good. 

WTR are similar, sets maximum working times, unless you waive your rights. Whilst they may not pay you for some work the limit is still 48 hours a week 

Thanks for this detail - it helps contextualise.

Paid VLW, so suppose on weeks where few hours worked chance of dipping below NMW? Not always though.

Agencytransfer

@brie @Savvy_Sue do you have any thoughts based off my responses please? I am paid weekly, so need to try and work out what to do before I have to submit my next one. Thank you

DullGreyGuy

Agencytransfer said:

brie Savvy_Sue do you have any thoughts based off my responses please? I am paid weekly, so need to try and work out what to do before I have to submit my next one. Thank you

How many activities do you typically have on the timecard? What mechanisms do they have to test its accuracy?

You didnt really respond to Brie's suggestion of just bumping the time spent on other activities by a few minutes so that the c20 minutes of time sheeting is accounted for but in the wrong places. 

The other problem is that this is likely a requirement of the agency and not the client hence the client doesn't want to pay for the time. If the client wants it broken down then there is more argument for their benefit and so they should pay for it. 

Personally I'm a day rate contractor so an extra 20 minutes doesn't make any difference to my income but the one time I did an hour based contract there was an explicit "non-rechargeable hours" section for when the consultancy wanted me to do things internally rather than for the end client and thats where my time sheeting time went. A recruitment agency is unlikely to want to pay something from their own pocket and imagine it doesn't have a similar option on the timesheet. 

Agencytransfer

DullGreyGuy said:

Agencytransfer said:

brie Savvy_Sue do you have any thoughts based off my responses please? I am paid weekly, so need to try and work out what to do before I have to submit my next one. Thank you

How many activities do you typically have on the timecard? What mechanisms do they have to test its accuracy?

You didnt really respond to Brie's suggestion of just bumping the time spent on other activities by a few minutes so that the c20 minutes of time sheeting is accounted for but in the wrong places. 

The other problem is that this is likely a requirement of the agency and not the client hence the client doesn't want to pay for the time. If the client wants it broken down then there is more argument for their benefit and so they should pay for it. 

Personally I'm a day rate contractor so an extra 20 minutes doesn't make any difference to my income but the one time I did an hour based contract there was an explicit "non-rechargeable hours" section for when the consultancy wanted me to do things internally rather than for the end client and thats where my time sheeting time went. A recruitment agency is unlikely to want to pay something from their own pocket and imagine it doesn't have a similar option on the timesheet. 

It can really vary week from week depending on what is going on - but they request for each activity to be listed individually - and if it goes over 2 days, that means 2 listings. Every meeting listed individually etc. Last week for example, there were 10 activities. We aren't assigned shifts, we are assigned projects, so the system relies on us accurately reporting the number of hours spent per project. I'm unsure of any mechanisms they have to test accuracy of the timecard, but there will be a general understanding of the kind of number of hours worked. I want my timecard to remain accurate though, discussed below. While it will be uncomfortable challenging this with my employer, it is important to me that I do so because I don't want my timecard to be dishonest.

Ah sorry - I didn't realise @brie was suggesting it as a resolution. I suppose the problem is given I've been asked not to log the time for this, I don't feel I can just hide the time elsewhere - and rather feel I need to address the request directly and explain why it would be unfair.

The client wants tasks broken down for evaluation of the role. The agency is just interested in total hours worked per day.

Basically I suppose I'm just after help please with how I can tell my employer, and justify it to them with any relevant law/guidance etc., that I want to still log those hours. I suppose in the short term while working it out with them, it is best to just keep logging it and tell them I will do so and then if they don't pay that time they don't pay it - if I don't claim it, it's hard to claim retrospectively.

It is difficult, but it would appear that it isn't being challenged on validity of hours worked (as they've paid it for the past ~1 year, rather based on the fact the budget is now smaller.

DullGreyGuy

Agencytransfer said:
Basically I suppose I'm just after help please with how I can tell my employer, and justify it to them with any relevant law/guidance etc., that I want to still log those hours. I suppose in the short term while working it out with them, it is best to just keep logging it and tell them I will do so and then if they don't pay that time they don't pay it - if I don't claim it, it's hard to claim retrospectively.

It is difficult, but it would appear that it isn't being challenged on validity of hours worked (as they've paid it for the past ~1 year, rather based on the fact the budget is now smaller.

Sounds like the client isn't your employer but the agency (or an umbrella company) is? Or are you self employed and therefore NMW doesn't apply?

The only legislation that can apply is NMW but that only applies if when dividing your weekly pay by the number of hours billed + 20 minutes comes out as below NMW. A quick check on Acas suggests NMW is tested on each pay period so do some calcs to see if there are any weeks/months (depending on your pay frequency) where time sheeting took you below NMW

Depending on who you get on better with you could speak to the agent or the client and say that the request for such an itemised timesheet is taking an excessive amount of time. Depending on how much you want to keep the job you could play hardball and say either 1) you'll fill the timesheet in only on the hours per day rather than the breakdown and continue to do so free of charge in your own time or 2) they need to recognise that they value the breakdown and therefore pay for the 20-30 minutes its taking to provide it. Obv as a temp they may just say your engagement is terminated

Agencytransfer

DullGreyGuy said:

Agencytransfer said:
Basically I suppose I'm just after help please with how I can tell my employer, and justify it to them with any relevant law/guidance etc., that I want to still log those hours. I suppose in the short term while working it out with them, it is best to just keep logging it and tell them I will do so and then if they don't pay that time they don't pay it - if I don't claim it, it's hard to claim retrospectively.

It is difficult, but it would appear that it isn't being challenged on validity of hours worked (as they've paid it for the past ~1 year, rather based on the fact the budget is now smaller.

Sounds like the client isn't your employer but the agency (or an umbrella company) is? Or are you self employed and therefore NMW doesn't apply?

The only legislation that can apply is NMW but that only applies if when dividing your weekly pay by the number of hours billed + 20 minutes comes out as below NMW. A quick check on Acas suggests NMW is tested on each pay period so do some calcs to see if there are any weeks/months (depending on your pay frequency) where time sheeting took you below NMW

Depending on who you get on better with you could speak to the agent or the client and say that the request for such an itemised timesheet is taking an excessive amount of time. Depending on how much you want to keep the job you could play hardball and say either 1) you'll fill the timesheet in only on the hours per day rather than the breakdown and continue to do so free of charge in your own time or 2) they need to recognise that they value the breakdown and therefore pay for the 20-30 minutes its taking to provide it. Obv as a temp they may just say your engagement is terminated

Agency is my employer - client asked me not to bill for the time. Apologies, I meant tell the client rather than tell the employer. I'm not self employed.

It's difficult because I've liked my job over the past year, but so many of the 'perks' that came with it have been removed or are being cut back due to budget. Ultimately I feel uncomfortable working without being (what I would deem) fairly compensated, so I guess I should ask. My manager (client) is nice and I think they are just trying to see what can be done to save budget, so I would hope 30 mins of VLW per week wouldn't be the be all and end all for my employment. I think I'll just email them centred around option 2 and just explain the time it takes and justify billing it. I'll run some calculations to see re NMW legislation.

Thank you all for your help - any further thoughts please do let me know.

DullGreyGuy

Do the NMW calls first, if there are any periods where you are under it will add weight to the discussion with the agency as they are your employer. They may be better at approaching the client.

Do you know what margin the agent has? The other option is to see if they would be willing to sacrifice some of it to bump up your hourly rate which may make you feel more comfortable not being paid for the time sheeting and ensure that they'd stay legal on NMW too. 

All comes down to your negotiation skills, how important the job is to you and how liked you are. My last role the agency gave up about 1/3 of their margin to me as they wanted to grow their relationship with the client and the alternatives, me leaving or them asking the client for more money, we agreed didnt support that aim.