What happens when not working but not entitled to anything?

peteuk

Spoonie_Turtle said:.

This is true for the assessment appointment in isolation (and the subsequent DWP decision, most of the time), and it's good for people to be prepared for that outcome.

But people need to know how PIP is assessed overall - how eligibility is determined, according to the law - in order not to be put off if/when the assessment with the HCP goes badly, to know what they should be entitled to and whether it's worth fighting.  That's what most of us tend to mean when saying 'how PIP is assessed'.

Totally agree, but reading betweeen the lines, the OP has stated that their wife’s conditions doesnt affect their ADLs to the point of scoring for PIP.  This may be an assumption on the OPs part.   From what has been posted I would certainly suggest there is an element of being unable to leave the household, but with the threashold being set so high, with no diagnosis it would be difficult to claim this. 

For example - I work 4 on 4 off, 12 hour shifts, work from home. I dont go out of the house for those four days.  Even on my days off, i rarely leave the house.   I have enough knowledge to fudge a PIP assessment.  With no diagnosis and evidence to support such a claim (rightfully in my case should I submit one- then it would be zero’d)   Sadly the assessor would see my PIP claim and treat it as the OPs wife claim.   Which is where the difficulty lies. 

Spoonie_Turtle

^ My apologies if it came across that I was commenting on the likelihood that OP's wife might qualify or not - we don't have enough information for that.  I was commenting solely on the focus of 'assessment', the HCP assessment and initial decision vs how it's properly decided according to the law. 
Which, to be fair, would have been more clear if I'd deleted the second paragraph of the quote in my comment.

Muttleythefrog

Yes.... just to input.... the Op (and partner) should, if not already, understand that a PIP assessment (or WCA assessment for ESA or UC) is not the decision... it's likely to be effectively rubber stamped by decision maker at the DWP but again that also is not necessarily correct according to law or the evidence and an appeal tribunal looking at the evidence (and getting more at a tribunal) may reach a different ultimate decision. We know the quality of such assessments can be very poor to downright unbelievable.. right up to very professional and accurate. But I think I was reading yesterday that around 10% of appeals in cases of zero points being scored led to an appeal outcome of maximum PIP award... that is alarming as it points to far bigger problems than accuracy... but we see cases of that commonly through sites like here and we know how and why it happens and has done ever since PIP was created.

Diagnosis is undoubtedly going to help be persuasive of problems and enable justification of disabling descriptor choices by assessors or DWP DMs but is not essential. For mental health problems I might be inclined to pursue such anyway as it may lead to help including social prescribing by GP services... this could be particularly relevant if someone is finding themselves 'out of the picture'.. economically inactive... or the like.  

Important to remind that reliability criteria is significant and particularly when it comes to mental illness where the illness itself may not prevent activities completely they can present issues of being able to perform the activities reliably such that disability descriptors in the criteria are applicable. I think the Op and partner should be sure that with reliability criteria considered there is no real possibility of gaining PIP (or N-S ESA) before putting the matter completely to bed pending any significant change of health.

marcia_

gbhxu said:

sammyjammy said:

I'm sure you mean well but in reality nobody is unemployable, its a dreadful word, I think with the right job and the right support pretty much anyone can work, if only a few hours.  Whether that support is available is a whole other story....

Trouble is that a disabled worked won't have the same work output as a non disabled worker

 What rubbish 🙄

marcia_

UKSBD said:

Thanks all

She is a genuine employee, although she doesn't do a great deal, I work from home and she looks after me when I'm working, does a bit of admin work and  is always on call to answer the phone when I'm out which tends to be at least 3 or 4 hours a day.

She may only answer the phone 4 or 5 times a day, but if she wasn't doing it the company would have to employ someone else

She has recently started walking the neighbors dog which she gets £20 a week for, it's less than 30 weeks a year though so well under the £1,000

I did suggest she actually sets up as a self employed dog walker, no other neighbours need her though and it seems a bit over the top her registering when she's only likeky to earn £500 a year from it, plus just bringing the subject up sets her anxiety off.

I agree unenployable is a horrible word and she does justify what she earns working for my company.

How I really should have described it is that there is zero chance of finding another employer who would employ her

 How is she a dog walker if she has agoraphobia 

Spoonie_Turtle

marcia_ said:

UKSBD said:

Thanks all

She is a genuine employee, although she doesn't do a great deal, I work from home and she looks after me when I'm working, does a bit of admin work and  is always on call to answer the phone when I'm out which tends to be at least 3 or 4 hours a day.

She may only answer the phone 4 or 5 times a day, but if she wasn't doing it the company would have to employ someone else

She has recently started walking the neighbors dog which she gets £20 a week for, it's less than 30 weeks a year though so well under the £1,000

I did suggest she actually sets up as a self employed dog walker, no other neighbours need her though and it seems a bit over the top her registering when she's only likeky to earn £500 a year from it, plus just bringing the subject up sets her anxiety off.

I agree unenployable is a horrible word and she does justify what she earns working for my company.

How I really should have described it is that there is zero chance of finding another employer who would employ her

 How is she a dog walker if she has agoraphobia 

Perhaps by having a type of agoraphobia that's about being in crowds or around people, rather than having difficulty simply being outside.  (Incidentally an agora was a public meeting place or market.)

Muttleythefrog

gbhxu said:

sammyjammy said:

I'm sure you mean well but in reality nobody is unemployable, its a dreadful word, I think with the right job and the right support pretty much anyone can work, if only a few hours.  Whether that support is available is a whole other story....

Trouble is that a disabled worked won't have the same work output as a non disabled worker

As above... I certainly would not assume this... and the opposite will sometimes be true... while often it may not be noticeable a difference. It depends on the disability and the role.... some disabled people use their disability or illness to their advantage... I for example with severe OCD was able to become highly efficient and accurate in roles I held like software development, data analysis or administrative work... certainly well beyond the average colleague... but ultimately I ended up in a job working for the NHS in a senior data and development role where they gave me a dripping tap and a 6 week wait for a PC and workstation during the swine flu pandemic which I was expected to play a key role in regarding reporting to government... set up to fail I never worked again after trying to leave work from an upper floor window. In my time of work across fairly varied roles I'd say the most significant failures I encountered in others was laziness and complacency... neither likely related to a disability or health condition but highly impacting on output and its quality.

Crucial is getting disabled people into work or circumstances that make them functional and effective... stick someone with no legs as a coastal walk tour guide and they're going to face some barriers and perhaps insurmountable mobility ones... stick them behind a PC creating brochures for such tours and they may well not.

justwhat

NedS said:

justwhat said:

UC system punishes people with savings.  If you are just over means tested thresholds, You may be able to get under the threshold legitimately.

Punish is a weird choice of words. No one is being punished, the OP and their wife are in the fortunate position that they have savings and/or income, and are able to support themselves independently of the benefits system, which is there to protect those who are less fortunate.

The OP's wife would be able to claim ESA if they are unable to work due to their illness/disability, and they have been working and have been credited with National Insurance contributions.

Many people have the ability or high enough earnings to save.  Many do not save for various reasons.  This puts them in the "less fortunate category".

So IF you have/had  the ability to save and decide not to, compared to those that do choose to save. You are disadvantaged / punished.

Maybe disadvantaged is a better term lol 







 

UKSBD

marcia_ said:

UKSBD said:

Thanks all

She is a genuine employee, although she doesn't do a great deal, I work from home and she looks after me when I'm working, does a bit of admin work and  is always on call to answer the phone when I'm out which tends to be at least 3 or 4 hours a day.

She may only answer the phone 4 or 5 times a day, but if she wasn't doing it the company would have to employ someone else

She has recently started walking the neighbors dog which she gets £20 a week for, it's less than 30 weeks a year though so well under the £1,000

I did suggest she actually sets up as a self employed dog walker, no other neighbours need her though and it seems a bit over the top her registering when she's only likeky to earn £500 a year from it, plus just bringing the subject up sets her anxiety off.

I agree unenployable is a horrible word and she does justify what she earns working for my company.

How I really should have described it is that there is zero chance of finding another employer who would employ her

 How is she a dog walker if she has agoraphobia 

The agoraphobia is more of a social anxiety thing.

She doesn't like going out where there may be other people, very difficult to explain or understand.

Typical example would be if she was walking along the street and someone other side of road laughed, in my wifes mind, they would be laughing at her.

If anything happens, it is aimed at her, anything goes wrong, it's her fault, people make a joke, there is a hidden meaning behind it, everyone who sees her is judging her.

When rational she knows all these things ae stupid and can even laugh about it - "It's those crazy little people in my head again"

The dog doesn't judge her

Northern_Wanderer

Interesting discussion that has grown arms and legs. I think it is good to get some input from the OP and ultimately it is up to his wife what she wants to do. All we can do is provide the information.

And to add some more legs, and this is a general observation, not aimed at the OP, but I'm always amazed at how many people think they should get a disability payment just because they have a diagnosis and want to get "registered onto the system". Then get a surprise when at the end of the form they have said that they can complete all / most of the tasks asssessed without difficulty......