Removal of redundant, live gas pipes

schmuel

Hello all,

Struiggling with an issue in our new home which I'm hoping I might find some advice on here. 

We recently purchased a Victorian house in London which we're currently rennovating for a few weeks before moving in. Our builder has uncovered a redundant gas pipe which runs up through the house from the cellar to the first floor. It comes off the main supply pipe into the house, before the gas meter, so "belongs" (as far as I can make out) to Cadent. It's capped off at the top and live. I'm guessing at one point the house was split into two flats, and this pipe served a (separately metered) flat upstairs..? That must have been several decades ago though as we know it's been a single dwelling for over 30 years.

We would like to have the pipe removed, partly because it's in the way and partly because it feels a bit unsafe having a live, exposed gas pipe running through the house - and no way of turning off the supply via a meter should it get damaged or start leaking or anything. I've called Cadent about it and they've said they will turn off the supply at the street to allow us to remove the pipe (for £2100) but then we'd also need to pay an engineer to actually remove the pipe - so all in all quite a significant expense.

I've also seen separate advice elsewhere (in this forum and some general googling) that suggests that Cadent possibly ought have removed this pipe already (under gas safety regulations?), since after 12 months' of the removal of a meter, any redundant pipes should be taken back to supply. And also some suggestions that Cadent will sometimes remove a pipe for no charge, but not if they're asked to first... But I'm not sure if that relates to this sort of case.

Anyway, I'm at a bit of a loss. We can't afford several thousand pounds to remove this pipe at the moment and I'm not clear what our rights (or Cadent's obligations) are here. It seems unfair to me that we should have to essentially put up with redundant Cadent pipework running through our house - but grateful to hear how others view it.

Thanks!
Sam

FreeBear

Had an old iron gas pipe running under the concrete slab in my kitchen extension. Could smell gas one day, so called the emergency line. Cadnet came out and disconnected the pipe from the mains the other side of the road. Didn't cost me anything.

schmuel

Thanks FreeBear. I have had Cadent out to look at it already as our builder smelt gas when they opened up the boxing - they tightened up the cap/valve at the end of the pipe and satisfied themselves that it wasn't leaking any longer, but that was all they were prepared to do. 

Scot_39

As you are now renovating the property - you pay - seems to be perfectly allowed under the brief summary of rules here.

https://www.energynetworks.org/customers/disconnecting-from-the-gas-network

What maybe should have happened in past is pretty much irrelevent - and in any case - you seem to be a little confused about what meter - charged at some suppliers and then the free GDN service disconnection would have meant.  If in fact anything at all.  They wouldn't do anything at all in my sisters house after 12m - it's got a modern plastic pipe feed - and that would be left live to gas mains as a rule.

Disconnecting at street level - is not the same as fully removing the external or internal pipework.

And if your property was split in a way that you shared the feed from street - which it sounds as if it is - that wouldn't be capped as easily - even unclear if would be free - even if metal at street level in any case.  The supply to the other property would need to be left in tact.  Cost implicatons - free / shared / well in this case yours as you now onw the whole home etc ?

Removal of any then dead internal pipework - AFAIK - would always be at your cost.

My parents old council house - they cut away old external at entry to sub ground level - and left the old internal metal pipes in kitchen and through one wall to old meter location - one 6 foot tall riser section half buried in the wall by pasterers after installed.  Just stuck a disconected label on it - when a new I think from what dad said was plastic pipe run from street - then connected to new meter location - fitted decades ago now ( maybe 80s / 90s ). 

schmuel

Hi Scot,

Thanks for the link. I can see that if we wanted the main gas feed for the house removed for some reason - e.g. rennovation that meant the pipe was in the way or whatever - that should be chargeable, but I feel our case is a bit different since we don't need anything done to our main supply or to the meter. The issue is a dead length of live pipe that was (presumably) left in situ following removal of a meter - it should have been disconnected as close to the main feed as possible at the time, but wasn't. It's a safety/good practice issue, to my mind.

This is from the regs: 
"where the meter has not been re-installed or replaced by another meter before the expiry of the period of 12 months beginning with the date of removal of the meter and there is no such service valve as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (a)(i) above, ensure that the service pipe or service pipework for those premises is disconnected as near as is reasonably practicable to the main or storage vessel and that any part of the pipe or pipework which is not removed is sealed at both ends with the appropriate fitting"

And then the explanatory notes:
"the gas supplier (together with the transporter in the case of natural gas) needs to decide the appropriate action in a particular case, bearing in mind that unused "live" service pipes or pipework represent a potential hazard. Metal fittings should be used to seal metal pipes (and emergency control outlets under regulation 16(3)(a)). Any installation pipework or other gas fitting rendered redundant by meter removal should be made safe (eg by purging, and sealing any open gasways with an appropriate fitting)"

Removing the pipework once it's been made safe isn't a problem, our builder can do that. But obviously it needs to be made safe first and it doesn't feel right that we should have to fork out over 2k when, as far as I can tell, the regs suggest this should have been done ages ago by the GDN.

gwynlas

If they deem it safe that is as much as you can expect if you want  it removed for cosmetic reasons then it is your responsibility.
On the basis that you  renovating anyway it should not be expensive and would give you peace of mind.

jefaz07

schmuel said:

Hi Scot,

Thanks for the link. I can see that if we wanted the main gas feed for the house removed for some reason - e.g. rennovation that meant the pipe was in the way or whatever - that should be chargeable, but I feel our case is a bit different since we don't need anything done to our main supply or to the meter. The issue is a dead length of live pipe that was (presumably) left in situ following removal of a meter - it should have been disconnected as close to the main feed as possible at the time, but wasn't. It's a safety/good practice issue, to my mind.

This is from the regs: 
"where the meter has not been re-installed or replaced by another meter before the expiry of the period of 12 months beginning with the date of removal of the meter and there is no such service valve as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (a)(i) above, ensure that the service pipe or service pipework for those premises is disconnected as near as is reasonably practicable to the main or storage vessel and that any part of the pipe or pipework which is not removed is sealed at both ends with the appropriate fitting"

And then the explanatory notes:
"the gas supplier (together with the transporter in the case of natural gas) needs to decide the appropriate action in a particular case, bearing in mind that unused "live" service pipes or pipework represent a potential hazard. Metal fittings should be used to seal metal pipes (and emergency control outlets under regulation 16(3)(a)). Any installation pipework or other gas fitting rendered redundant by meter removal should be made safe (eg by purging, and sealing any open gasways with an appropriate fitting)"

Removing the pipework once it's been made safe isn't a problem, our builder can do that. But obviously it needs to be made safe first and it doesn't feel right that we should have to fork out over 2k when, as far as I can tell, the regs suggest this should have been done ages ago by the GDN.

It is in use though, in your property. Dual services are not uncommon and will share the same SID (service ID)
It will be logged on XOSERVE as live and in use with one number so would never be put forward for a GSMR. If someone has changed the layout of the property it wouldn’t be a GDN issue. 

jefaz07

schmuel said:

Hi Scot,

Thanks for the link. I can see that if we wanted the main gas feed for the house removed for some reason - e.g. rennovation that meant the pipe was in the way or whatever - that should be chargeable, but I feel our case is a bit different since we don't need anything done to our main supply or to the meter. The issue is a dead length of live pipe that was (presumably) left in situ following removal of a meter - it should have been disconnected as close to the main feed as possible at the time, but wasn't. It's a safety/good practice issue, to my mind.

This is from the regs: 
"where the meter has not been re-installed or replaced by another meter before the expiry of the period of 12 months beginning with the date of removal of the meter and there is no such service valve as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (a)(i) above, ensure that the service pipe or service pipework for those premises is disconnected as near as is reasonably practicable to the main or storage vessel and that any part of the pipe or pipework which is not removed is sealed at both ends with the appropriate fitting"

And then the explanatory notes:
"the gas supplier (together with the transporter in the case of natural gas) needs to decide the appropriate action in a particular case, bearing in mind that unused "live" service pipes or pipework represent a potential hazard. Metal fittings should be used to seal metal pipes (and emergency control outlets under regulation 16(3)(a)). Any installation pipework or other gas fitting rendered redundant by meter removal should be made safe (eg by purging, and sealing any open gasways with an appropriate fitting)"

Removing the pipework once it's been made safe isn't a problem, our builder can do that. But obviously it needs to be made safe first and it doesn't feel right that we should have to fork out over 2k when, as far as I can tell, the regs suggest this should have been done ages ago by the GDN.

Again, you do need something done to the main supply. You need it moved. And a GDN won’t be able to just cut and cap it. The whole lot would need replaced. Likely to an external meter box, on occasion it can be ‘slotted’ if the pipe configuration dictates.