Billed estimates on old meters after smart meter fitting

Scot_39

I dont disagree with the severe failures reported here

- not mapping new meters and readings to account immediately after install
- using old meter baseline for months (years plus ?) After

- trying to take difference between new and old readings match to try and make account finally accurate (the forced assumed meter wrap comment) may have produced a hideous estimate if passed vetting

- fixing gas - but not fixing electric at same time

And it being BGas they have been migrating millions over to a new accounts system.  Whilst for many that probably went seemlessly.  All sorts of problems negatively impacting some customers have been reported - sone posted here - credit balances not transferred, DD payments not applied to new account etc.  A meter change could easily have been another victim if happened on your account at roughly same time.

However Estimates are just that - "false" adjustments to a previous baseline.

It's irrelevant to some extent what the absolute baseline used was for amount billed

Say old electric reading was 80,000 ,  new reading on smart 0.  And you used 400 kWh per month  but tge estimates used were underestimated at 300kWh

80,000 80,300, 80,6000 on bills produces exactly the same monthly usage and charge  as 0,300,600.

The problem comes when 6 months later like the say in Apr 23 - you submit the 6x400 = 2400 true reading.  But their estimated a far lower 6 x300 = 1800.  And if still on old meter baseline they expect see 81,800

What you would expect is a corrective bill for 600 more units.

What their accounts system sees is  81800 estimated to 2400 measured.  With a wrap at 100,000 that would compute at 20,600.

If B Gas systems actually billed you a silly large bill even if then cancelled immediately when queeried or complaint -  I hope that was in as an additional source of stress in your complaint via Ombudsman

The  Ombudsman is meant to be impartial - it takes data from 2 sides and checks whether
a) rules applied,
b) decides on and recommends corrective actions (it's power to enforce often questioned here)
and
c) in bad cases also recommends on a sliding scale of compensation.

Playing devil's advocate it's hardly fair to say you weren't using any energy during the disputed period - estimated bills are normally considered legal and would I guess stand  - but your case isn't normal. 
You have however probably even given Ombudsman Apr 23 readings and beyond to date maybe  etc to correct those estimates ' they will apply back billing etc where necessary in their calcs.


S Gas - basically B Gas retail in Scotland - have in past rejected readings repeatedly on my mums account - there was a manual note against one of our family submitted - we got a printout of account notes as part of complaint - as too far from their estimates - to be reviewed - despite being true - her use genuinely had near doubled due to ill health.


And in scenario above you might expect they and other suppliers might hopefully  flag that false wrap reading - and reject the readings  - but yet silly bills are issued.

 Apr 23 your submission of manual smart meter readings and pointing out being on wrong meter based billed estimates - should have been enough for them to fix.   It should have been sorted by mid summer last year again any competent operator.

But by then they might arguably been snowed under with account system move issues. 
Their fault of course, and shouldn't have become yours.


As to back billing  - it's not a they cannot bill you at all - its more AFAIK they cannot add new increases to bills that would increase debt on your account.

The hypothetical example above  300 would possibly then stand, the new 100 thry underestimated  if I understand the basic premise of backbilling (not to have a billing error correction compound consumer debt)  cannot be demanded for any period over 12m ago.  But then it gets complicated with any credit balance - as you can from some reports loose any standing payments resulting in credit if overpaying.

And that is another area thart the ombudsman may be able to help with.

So again taking 2 years and 100 underestimate example per month - so 2400 total.  I would hope they cannot add the first 1200 for Sep 22 to Sep 23, but can add the second 1200 from Sep 23 to Sep 24.
But you have a series possibly of manual - from Apr 23 and they or you can get monthly readings from your smart for Sep 23 on..

And they have to produce estimates as accurate as possible - they cannot simply take the 2400 and apply as if used now ' although SGas tried just that - i made them rebill past 4 6m bills.

Electric smart certainly has last c13m of data - assume gas the same.  And even if they didn't have it - firms can pull it retrospectively if they have the software options - just like apps like loop or bright can or sites like n3rgy will do. 
If you don't have regular readings data - from last autumn  of say monthly consumption you could scan and take notes from ihd history - or get an app or service account and download the 13m of history now.


You could if have them 

Use old meter reading  - should be on label next to new meter and a previous bill based on an earlier actual reading 
New smart initial reading - often,  not always 0, again label in meter cabinet
Today's smart meter readings

To work out a total consumption as a sanity check.

Splitting the new actual consumption across wildly different pricing over last 2 years another issue  - but that's B Gas responsibility - and it might be cheaper for you if they didnt e.g. if  just used say Jul - Sep rates or 3ven current as still cheaper than last 2 winters

But if you have history from Apr 23 to now - you could even try that

Arguably suppliers should be able to recover it too - but it's unlikely to be automated the way daily read say are at many
They may even have it logged against your new meters and could access it / transfer it over.

I really hope the Ombudsman takes B Gas to account on these long running errors - its pretty unforgivable once spotted and reported in Apr 23 - for you to still be fighting this  18m later.

HBomb78

@Scot_39
Thank you for your detailed response. You have reassured me that I have the right to complain to the ombudsman. I am really grateful to you  I think I have got myself to the point where I am doubting myself

The last time I had an accurate bill was when I provided readings on my old meters 22/05/22. I was on a fixed tariff, in credit, on DD and heading into the summer months so had no concerns.

16/09/22, the meters were exchanged. The engineer left me with a copy of the meter exchange paperwork so I have the closing meter reads and the opening reads of zero (thank goodness I kept this bit of paper!!)

BGas did in deed then migrate me to the new system 30/09/22 on the old meters with inflated estimate readings but failed to add the new meters to the account. 

During one online chat, I explained I'd had new meters and they weren't registered on my account but the BGas advisor added the electricity reading anyway, this took me from 68,000 to c3,000 producing a bill of £7.5k. I pointed out his mistake instantly, which he acknowledged, yet it still took 4 months to get credited. I even received emails threatening me with the debt collecting agency. 

I was advised to cancel my DD, which I did, however, this meant I've had to pay 6% higher tariff... no, I wasn't told about this when advised to cancel  (fixed tariff lapsed summer 2023). I've not paid anything since Dec 23 which is another pain point (I've never owed a penny to anyone other than my mortgage).

I've read stories in the media about similar customer experiences and thought they were over exaggerating the impact it had on them, you know, to make it a better reading?!... how wrong was I... wow!!!
Even though I know this is all BGas's fault, I've been on constant edge for 18 months. Waiting for the next email to come through, another mistake that compounds the original issue and makes untangling it all even harder or find the complaint has been reassigned and the advisor hasn't even read the email they are responding to, let alone the history! Exhausted, anxious, sleep deprived, fearful, consumed... it's no joke

Anyway... I have no issue paying for the energy I've used but I am struggling to justify how a company can bill you for something that no longer exists through their own actions?
e.g. is there a clause in the Consumer Rights Act that states you must be invoiced correctly? i.e. you wouldn't pay an invoice for an Audi when you bought a BMW?

Why would I therefore be liable for energy usage on a meter that doesn't exist??

If I'm going completely gaga, please say... you won't offend! as I said, this has been my life for 18 months and my head is taking me down rabbit holes!!

Gerry1

I knew immediately this was going to be British Gas !

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/79942900/#Comment_79942900

Scot_39

The Ombudsman may make a major judgement on the billing,  given wrong meters and even the supply license terms on accurate billing - see below etc..

They arguably as above have to be fair to both parties - it's more an arbitration system - where both sides present their case - than a consumers champion some might expect.

I know it's maybe difficult to grasp - and maybe a stretch on my part - but the estimates are not directly related to a meter.  If a supplier doesn't get a reading - they will issue an estimated bill against even when the correct meter - and do so repeatedly - and that is what the customer pays.

Edit suppliers have even to use edtimates long term to bill in event of failed meters -but over a year - again I think is a potential breach of spirit of license - but there may ge a get out clause i havent read yet for failures.  It's 100s of pages long.

 B Gas I suspect will ask for past estimated bills and payments to stand - but they are on pretty slippy grounds after 2 years.

Re customer rights - this ix from billing section in livense terms.  There is a general expectation on suppliers to keep billing accurate as possible.  I think its in limit at an annual basis based on 21b.4.  Based on - my take anyway of  - in this case electrical supply license conditions.

Condition 21B. Billing based on meter readings

21B.1 If a Customer provides a meter reading to the licensee that the licensee considers reasonably accurate, or if the Electricity Meter is read by the licensee, the licensee must take all reasonable steps to reflect the meter reading in the next Bill or statement of account sent to the Customer.

21B.2 If the licensee considers that a meter reading provided by a Customer is not reasonably accurate, the licensee must take all reasonable steps to contact the Customer to obtain a new meter reading from him. 

21B.3  Paragraphs 21B.4 and 21B.5 apply from 31 December 2014. 
21B.4 The licensee must take all reasonable steps to obtain a meter reading (including any meter reading transmitted electronically from a meter to the licensee or provided by the Customer and accepted by the licensee) for each of its Customers at least once every year

Both gas and electric available here
 
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/industry-licensing/licences-and-licence-conditions

I'd say BGas have clearly failed on the above.  You have provided manually, and they have more recently told you receiving smart readings.

There's a section on backbilling there too.  But even Ofgem had to expand on how that operated to suppliers.


As I say the Ombudsman might make a decision against BGas purely on that.


But as I say it also turns out you in fact have all the data to work out an actual real consumption - since last real date - you may even have included it in your submission to Ombudsman.

So not sure what they will say.



It's again interesting you say the estimate on old to new system was higher than expected -  another sign of failure on their part to map account history imo.  You might have been building extra credit.

Especially with a history of being in credit on old.  But maybe the new system rebased everyone on a new generic customer profile.  There were certainly complaints about unreasonable DD demands and others couldn't at least initially switch to get something called monthly variable direct debt on the new BGas system to avoid what they saw as excessive credit build up demanded in annualised plans.

As to not being told about standard credit increased rates ( on current cap it's now iirc £112 pa as £1829 above DD £1717 - and £160 above now lower prepay)  - you might have been able to argue driven there by things like silly wrap reads and £7.5k demand and customer service advice (e.g. to avoid any fraction of that money actually being taken from account) - and so maybe ask - well I'd go as far to say right to demand even - to be rebilled at DD rates.

But you may be happy just to get a final proper set of bills and get this behind you.

Why haven't you paid anything since Dec 23  ?

Assuming you were moved onto standard credit- have they not been sending bills - despite registering your smart meters and saying they have measurements ?

Did they ever tell you what standard credit billing cycle you would go onto - some firms were 6m, some 3m, some even moving to 1m as introduce new account systems.

Are they only sending electronically - or trying to - but got that wrong too - have you created an online account on new system to check any nominal balances, reading history if any and billed amounts / correspondance history etc ?

Edit 12:45 You may also have been able to apply one off card payments via on line account.  But I'd have trust concerns admittedly would credit count etc in doing so given mess.

Just put (keep hopefully) the money aside if you can.

If you have an ihd with your smart meter it will normally give an estimated daily/ weekly / monthly cost estimate as well as energy consumption.  That as I say should roll back 13m  - so beyond your last payment.

But given not registered properly to your account you might find meter rates (unit and standing charges) weren't always updated - but may do just as a quick rough figure.

You could also get historic Ofgem  svt cap prices for your region - since came off fixes - and use a spreadsheet and monthly readings etc.

Some meters will, also do it - never tried to find £££s on mine.  And I believe the apps like bright and loop etc may get same meter estimated cost and consumption estimates too.

HBomb78

Hi there!
In the time I could have grown a baby from seed, BGas STILL haven't actioned the Ombudsman's decision 😫
What's worse, the Ombudsman are agreeing with BGas that no further action is needed. 
 
The Ombudsman did side with me (hurray!) and said BGas have failed me, on multiple occasions. @Scot_39 you were spot on with referencing SL21.B 🥇  

I submitted readings but BGas failed to use them and provide me with accurate bills. The EO instructed them to issue an apology, reward me a nominal amount as compensation and review my account for back billing. Their response to BB...



I have gone back to EO and pointed out that SL21.B means that I cannot be charged for anything over 12 months, this is what she advised, why is this now acceptable? and a list of the other outstanding issues. I'm awaiting a call.

On one of my previous comments, I stated that BGas were now getting my reads for the gas supply, hmmmm, only on the 27th and 2nd of each month. Electric reads still aren't being pulled through to my account... this means (dah, dah, dah) I'm still getting estimated bills.

If EO have u-turned on the information they have previously given me, where do I go from here? Who is there to defend my consumer rights? 

molerat

HBomb78 said:

Hi there!
In the time I could have grown a baby from seed, BGas STILL haven't actioned the Ombudsman's decision 😫
What's worse, the Ombudsman are agreeing with BGas that no further action is needed. 
 
The Ombudsman did side with me (hurray!) and said BGas have failed me, on multiple occasions. @Scot_39 you were spot on with referencing SL21.B 🥇  

I submitted readings but BGas failed to use them and provide me with accurate bills. The EO instructed them to issue an apology, reward me a nominal amount as compensation and review my account for back billing. Their response to BB...



I have gone back to EO and pointed out that SL21.B means that I cannot be charged for anything over 12 months, this is what she advised, why is this now acceptable? and a list of the other outstanding issues. I'm awaiting a call.

On one of my previous comments, I stated that BGas were now getting my reads for the gas supply, hmmmm, only on the 27th and 2nd of each month. Electric reads still aren't being pulled through to my account... this means (dah, dah, dah) I'm still getting estimated bills.

If EO have u-turned on the information they have previously given me, where do I go from here? Who is there to defend my consumer rights? 

It does not state that you cannot be charged, it states they cannot recover payment for energy used over 12 months ago, a completely different thing.  You had already paid for that energy and they have allocated the payments made in that period to the energy consumed in that same period.  They have clearly stated that they have reviewed the account against those rules.  Do you disagree with accuracy of the charges and payments made in the period ?

Scot_39

means that I cannot be charged for anything over 12 months

Its a common misconception that back billing means no charges from more than 12 months ago on a revised / reworked bill after a period of dispute.

The way I think about back billing is strictly about NOT adding extra charges - but I must admit - the last issue I had was before the rules introduced - so my mum was held liable anyways.  

So its not billing for anything at all - so anything previous billed for before is allowed to stand. And that billed before includes estimated bills and payments against them.

So say if you had been billed for 10000 units, for the period - what they cannot do essentially is now decide to bill you for 11000 units - so adding 1000 units from more than12 months before (and even then their are a few exceptions). 

The 21.B section about only have 1 year to get the measurement (by reasonable steps) - is linked to the backbilling - to ensure the usage / bills should be accurate - and therefore no underecoverey of consumption should go over the 12 months - needing correction.  

Backbilling if you like is the penalty they pay for not getting the extra 1000 units recorded in my above example in time.

Now if you hadnt been billed at all for any of the 10,000 - and hadnt paid anything against the presumed / estimared consumption - thats another issue.   

It seems a very one sided as specified protection - a simple billing shock - a bill increase protection primarily.

The bold response 

- seems to be saying the revised / estimated total costs for the c17m period before Feb 2024 - E£629 ... are now I guess actually less than what you have already been estimated, billed and paid for - E£854 ... . vver the 17m and with credit migrated to new B Gas account from old.   

So overpaid in past £400+ for both fuels.

(Ive requested refunds for lower credit - but then I had measurement bills to tell it was real credit - you clearly did not *)

They strictly havent increased the amount to be paid for the period over what has been paid - with the revision to your billing.

So there is no offset to be applied on either gas or electric accounts to subtract from the revised bill / balnce to date.

(*) Theres an argumet to be had about why the credit was so high in the first place - but thats strictly outside of backbilling AFAIK.  And the compensation paid should maybe reflect this.

But as the Ombusdman applies the strict rules - and likely when setting the rules Ofgem might argue on balance - reasonable to expect users to challenge early / request refunds etc if long term issue.

HBomb78

molerat said:

HBomb78 said:

Hi there!
In the time I could have grown a baby from seed, BGas STILL haven't actioned the Ombudsman's decision 😫
What's worse, the Ombudsman are agreeing with BGas that no further action is needed. 
 
The Ombudsman did side with me (hurray!) and said BGas have failed me, on multiple occasions. @Scot_39 you were spot on with referencing SL21.B 🥇  

I submitted readings but BGas failed to use them and provide me with accurate bills. The EO instructed them to issue an apology, reward me a nominal amount as compensation and review my account for back billing. Their response to BB...



I have gone back to EO and pointed out that SL21.B means that I cannot be charged for anything over 12 months, this is what she advised, why is this now acceptable? and a list of the other outstanding issues. I'm awaiting a call.

On one of my previous comments, I stated that BGas were now getting my reads for the gas supply, hmmmm, only on the 27th and 2nd of each month. Electric reads still aren't being pulled through to my account... this means (dah, dah, dah) I'm still getting estimated bills.

If EO have u-turned on the information they have previously given me, where do I go from here? Who is there to defend my consumer rights? 

It does not state that you cannot be charged, it states they cannot recover payment for energy used over 12 months ago, a completely different thing.  You had already paid for that energy and they have allocated the payments made in that period to the energy consumed in that same period.  They have clearly stated that they have reviewed the account against those rules.  Do you disagree with accuracy of the charges and payments made in the period ?

Yes, I absolutely disagree with the accuracy of the charges.
1) 90% of the readings I have provided (with photographic evidence) have never been added to my account. At the time, they couldn't because they hadn't commissioned the smart meters, so continued to bill me on the old ones.
Saying that, one agent did add my actual reading which then took me from a read of approx. 68,000 units, round the clock to the new reading I'd given (approx. 03000 units). Consequently, the next bill I received was in excess of 8k   😱  
2) most of the bills I have received since the smart meters were installed, date back to the installation date in 2022 with previous bills being cancelled however, the new bill is still not accurate.



I have done a lot of reading on this subject Ofgem Backbilling: 12-Month Rule & Protections for SMEs

What Is Backbilling?

Backbilling refers to when an energy supplier issues a bill for energy used in the past that wasn’t previously charged for (or was billed incorrectly). Reasons for back billing can include:

• Supplier error (e.g., never sending a bill, ignoring meter readings, technical glitches)
• Incorrect meter readings (billing based on the wrong numbers)
• Meter faults (leading to under-recorded usage)

The key point: Ofgem, the energy regulator in Great Britain, limits suppliers from charging customers for energy used more than 12 months ago if the delay was entirely the supplier’s fault. This applies to domestic consumers and microbusinesses.

HBomb78

ADVICE NEEDED PLEASE!
The EO case handler made contact 3rd July and confirmed she understood my list of points / queries and agreed they were all valid and needed to be resolved in order to close the complaint. 
She said she'd pull together the calculations and backup for each of the points and draft an email for BG but send it to me that night so I could review it before it was sent to BG.

4th July, I received a letter from a solicitor acting on behalf of BG, chasing the outstanding account balance. The balance will be cleared (give or take £50) when BG process the additional adjustments that the case handler is yet to complete.

I contacted BG to ask why I was being chased when I have a complaint open. They had closed the f***** complaint again ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! After a 45 minute argument, under duress, the agent reopened it.

EO set herself 3 further deadlines to get the info to me, all missed. I've not had any response to my voicemails or emails for a week now. 

Today, I checked my credit score and my perfect 'Excellent' score has reduced by 70 points to 'Good' because BG have filed a non payment. I'm mortified, shaking with utter frustration. To top it off, BG have also added another charge to my account for late payment.

I feel so let down by the EO and BG. This has been dragging on for years, I'm exhausted, anxious, unsupported and now humiliated that I will carry this black mark on my credit score for years to come.

AND my meter reads are STILL not showing on my account yet I can see them on my usage and other apps

Please, please can somebody advise me what my options are?!