Can I choose a single rate electricity tariff?

michaels

My daughter's new flat according to the EPC has economy 7 and heats the hot water cylinder at night.
As far as I can tell it has a standard smart meter to which the immersion is connected as normal with only an on/off switch (no timer) so will only heat at night if you manually make it do so. The smart meter reading does not show night time usage.  Otherwise the flat has standard electric convection radiators definitely no night store heaters.

Seems to me that therefore there is no point being on dual rate tariff (and it is probably more expensive) but if I try and change supplier it only offers me a choice of a day/night tariff.  Is there anyway to instead get offered a standard (single rate) tariff?

Thanks

MattMattMattUK

michaels said:

My daughter's new flat according to the EPC has economy 7 and heats the hot water cylinder at night.
As far as I can tell it has a standard smart meter to which the immersion is connected as normal with only an on/off switch (no timer) so will only heat at night if you manually make it do so. The smart meter reading does not show night time usage.  Otherwise the flat has standard electric convection radiators definitely no night store heaters.

Seems to me that therefore there is no point being on dual rate tariff (and it is probably more expensive) but if I try and change supplier it only offers me a choice of a day/night tariff.  Is there anyway to instead get offered a standard (single rate) tariff?

Thanks

You need to get the current supplier to switch you to the single rate SVT first, then you will be able to see other supplier's single rate tariffs. 

How well insulated is the flat and how much does she think she will need to use the heating? 

Reed_Richards

A little odd that the meter does not show a day and night usage, isn't it?  Maybe you need to press some buttons?

Swipe

E7 smart meters normally show 3 readings: day, night and the total of both. You can probably just see the total. Take a note of the meter make and model number and do a search for the user manual. As mentioned, you'll need to get your supplier to register you meter as Profile class 1 on the national database before you'll be able to get quotes at single rates from other suppliers and you'll also want to fit an immersion heater timer if you go on a single rate tariff.

Slinky

Even if you get your current supplier to switch you to a single rate tarriff, it will take a while for that information to feed through to the price comparison websites unfortunately.

Reed_Richards

michaels said:

Is there anyway to instead get offered a standard (single rate) tariff?

Presumably you have to provide an address to get a quote.  But then does the supplier or comparison site look up that address to find out the type of tariff, single or dual rate?  Or do you tell them it is an E7 meter?  If it's the latter maybe a white lie that it is a single rate meter would give you the quote you want?  You might not be able to switch directly to a single rate tariff but you would have the information you are seeking.  The other thing you could try is to pretend you are a nearby flat in the hope that that is already on a single rate.  Either lie is a bit wrong but it's only necessary because you're being deprived of the full information that you require. 

michaels

Don't tell them about the meter / tariff, they just automatically ask for two rate usage and offer two rate tariffs.

Pretty sure the immersion is not on any sort of circuit that means it is used only overnight there is no timer just a single on/off switch and it seems to heat up whenever it is used not overnight at all.  I'm guessing when the smart meter was installed they just switched to a single circuit for the whole property, after all there are no night store heaters.

Pretty sure the place is going to be expensive to heat, it is also only single glazed (again despite the EPC claiming otherwise), the bathroom only has an opening window (full size not fanlight, on the ground floor with no extractor).
I think I will put the glazing film on the bedroom and lounge windows leaving the kitchen and bathroom without so they can open.

Scot_39

michaels said:

1) My daughter's new flat according to the EPC has economy 7 and heats the hot water cylinder at night.

2) As far as I can tell it has a standard smart meter to which the immersion is connected as normal with only an on/off switch (no timer) so will only heat at night if you manually make it do so. 

3)The smart meter reading does not show night time usage.  

4) Otherwise the flat has standard electric convection radiators definitely no night store heaters.

5) Seems to me that therefore there is no point being on dual rate tariff (and it is probably more expensive) but 

6) if I try and change supplier it only offers me a choice of a day/night tariff.  Is there anyway to instead get offered a standard (single rate) tariff?

Thanks

Breaking down your post

1,5) That may have been the original installation.

It is not uncommon - saw a few flats with exactly that mix - when searching with neice in Dec 23 - but in end found an e7 with lot 20 NSH - and she went for that.

5 especially - Hot water is in fact an easily forgotten cost - but may be a non trivial share of the total energy use in many flats - which sometimes require relatively little actual space heating compared to a standard home.

My HW tank doesn't feed my shower and takes 2.5-3kWh daily - but in mayn flats it will be a pressurised tank that does - and if so maybe adds another 1-1.5 kWh for a daily shower - if off peak timed - so your pushing c1200 - 1500 kWh per annum.

The Ofgem profile class 2 TDCVs are lower quartile - 2200 kWh per annum - median - 3900 kWh.

(from

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-05/TDCV 2023 Decision Letter.pdf

)

So anywhere around 1000-1500 - could alone be enough to make e7 on average similar if not cheaper than single rate electric for a low heating user

But yes e7 inherently has an expensive day rate vs single rate and a cheaper night rate - but the differences between suppliers and across regions within suppliers can be striking (last winter one post found off-peak in the 11-16p region for his region across suppliers - cheaper off-peak meant more expensive peak) - obviously if at extreme high or low night use - the difference really matters.  Around 35-40% less so.

Shift other load - e.g turn couple of the heater panels on for the last hour of e7 in the morning - if getting up early for work etc - and you shift a few kWh per day - 100s kWh over 4 months of winter more in off peak - so even higher percent night rate - making it even more likely to be similar if not cheaper.

And just to turn the subject around -  have you considered - if in fact on e7 - replacing panels with modern HHR NSH - to take advantage of it.  The pay back maybe several years - but could be worth while investment.

It may even help the EPC - it may help the sale price / time (some buyers are more savy about runnig costs these days - but others say not a game changer)

Does the flat - or EPC - breakdown hot water vs heating costs - the last one we had when selling my mum's house the estimates were seperate ?

2) Yes thats a little off if true.  And given your high post counts I assume you know the difference between four port E7 and five port e7 smart / digital meters.

Are you sure that was the only HW heater element ?

Most modern flats I saw - neice must have viewed about 10 - mostly 2 beds - werent using old style restricted circuit method - so 4 port meters not five - but they then had timer spur switches or timers / with boost buttons - on at least one HW element (some 2 bed 2 bath flats had off peak main / lower and boost timer / manual switched elements).

3) Again - as above posters - meters - might default to one or other or just total - some switch dynamically to r1 / r2 at time - but normally then display which - but they are all different.  Find the model - and see if have to prod to get split register readings.  I have to.

4) Yes - common cash saving trick.  £100 panel vs £700+ for a NSH.  

Cynical - all adds to profit margin on new build or landlord upgrades when they are not paying bills.

And many consumers frankly fear NSH based on problems with older ones - they were (in my case still are) a fath to control and could be wasteful especially for those out all day - just not true of modern programmable / smart NS heaters - even more so the HHR NSH variety.

6) Some suppliers are very rigid - others will allow you to switch and switch to SR immediately on joining - albeit probably more over phone.

But seen few posters here report have ended up stuck on e7 dual rate with profile class 2 whilst argue with suppliers - after switching or after SoLR takoevers etc - when old supplier happily billed on SR.

Try phoning to ask rates and if they will bill supply on SR - but I'd possibly e-mail and get the answer confirmed in writing - or in a text chat history - before switching - just in case

Re rates

If on single rate - AFAIK most of the big suppliers just charge Ofgem Cap or near enough.   (Octopus IIRC at least used to discount about 2% of SC - havent checked recently)

E7 rates - vary wildly across regions within suppliers and across suppliers - even under EPG nominal cap - e7 was still a hot switch to save tariff.  So arguably it's more important to see them when seeking a quote.

Fixes another issue again.

michaels

Thanks for your thoughts. It is a one year rental so take it as it is deal unfortunately on the missing nsh.

I will get DD to have another look to see if there is a second immersion or timer but based on her usage which I can see the water is just heating after she showers. She lives student hours so I suspect more likely to benefit from E7 heating hours late than early....

As you say, if the hot water can heat overnight then E7 might make sense, otherwise it definitely won't.