Renovating flat: best heating options?

lb00

Thank you @Gerry1 @Scot_39
I'll get some more quotes to get a better idea of the costs involved in the storage heaters solution.
Living room/kitchen is 26sqm, Bedroom 1 is 12sqm and bedroom 2 is 10sqm. What size would you suggest for the Dimplex quantums?

I'll also get the air conditioning system serviced (200£ ) to get an idea of its condition and whether it needs replacing.

FreeBear

lb00 said: Living room/kitchen is 26sqm, Bedroom 1 is 12sqm and bedroom 2 is 10sqm. What size would you suggest for the Dimplex quantums?

To come up with an accurate sizing would need to know the height of the rooms, window area and number of external walls. Even then, it would only be a rough calculation.

Gerry1

lb00 said:

What size would you suggest for the Dimplex quantums?

I'm afraid I'll have to pass on that because there are too many unknowns.  You'd be the one having to live with the the results if I got it wrong !  Best to have an on-site survey from a knowledgeable professional.

The only safe bet is to go for the larger size if in any doubt: if it's too small you'll have to let it top up at the expensive day rate or shiver when the weather's really cold.  A larger size will cost a bit more, but think of it like an insurance policy to make sure you'll always be warm enough.

Scot_39

Dimplex resellers often have a rough sizing guide on their website - and their own sizing guides or calcs.

A couple of examples can be seen - just the first 2 vendors in a google search - not any sort of recommendation(*) - one goes from 5-15 sqm - the other from 4-11 sqm for RF050 -> 150

(I would get a quote from a local installer - rather than buy and get a local to fit - they should be able to size, and cover the necessary wiring arrangements - they are not like simple panel heaters - and work easiest if dual wired if you have a restricted meter system - and only a select few don't require dual connections - Quantum RF and Elnur iirc can be single wired)

https://www.heatershop.co.uk/storage-heaters/dimplex-quantum-rf

https://www.electricpoint.com/heating/electric-heating/dimplex-quantum-storage-heaters.html

But if there is anything abnormal about the flat - solid walls, high ceilings, single glazed etc  you can enter the details into the Dimplex estimation tool - to give you an idea - before getting a proper quote from an installer.

If you select the Quantum it goes by input charge rating - assuming an E7 7 hour charge window iirc - not output rating.

https://www.dimplex.co.uk/en-gb/room-heating-calculator

And its maybe better to slightly oversize - space permitting - just in case there is a really bad cold snap - or simply to avoid the need for use of the boost heater if there was one.  The cost increments for doing so are not from memory a large fraction of the total installation spend when factor in cost of labour, units and wiring mods.

EssexHebridean

The Quantums have vents at the bottom and as already said, a small fan. If standing right by the heater you can feel the "breeze" from the air being pushed out, and the fan does make a low level of noise when running, although if everything is working well it should be almost unnoticeable.  If further away there is no feeling of air being "blown around" though.  There is a tiny it of radiant heat from them - but compared to the old style heaters it is next to nothing. It does still warm the place slightly while the heaters are charging, so it would usually be suggested that NSHs aren't really ideal for bedroom heating. 

I'd second the suggestion that you overspec the size unless money is absolutely critical - the Quantums will balance the amount of charge they need to take anyway. 

ch_152

Scot_39 said:

and work easiest if dual wired if you have a restricted meter system - and only a select few don't require dual connections - Quantum RF and Elnur iirc can be single wired)

Gerry1 said:

Make sure at least one E7 outlet has a neon indicator, especially if you go for the 'bodge' of single supply operation.  Best avoided, especially in locations where there's no existing spur for a panel heater.

Hi both. Sorry to slightly derail but could you expand on the potential issues of "single supply operation". I have storage heaters in a flat in London which are single supply. I had the consumer unit which the storage heaters were connected on removed from the E7 circuit and instead run to be constantly live. With a view to controlling via a smart timer/switch which I'm hoping to get sorted soon (as I need to start using them now it's getting cold!). This would allow me to align the times they activate with cheapest times on a tariff such as Octopus Agile (and be able to manually switch on/off during the day for a boost).


A bit of googling and found this on using a single supply to the Quantums:  https://help.gdhv.co.uk/support/solutions/articles/79000141048-how-do-i-wire-a-qmrf-for-single-supply-


Doesn't seem to be any issue?

Scot_39

ch_152 said:

Scot_39 said:

and work easiest if dual wired if you have a restricted meter system - and only a select few don't require dual connections - Quantum RF and Elnur iirc can be single wired)

Gerry1 said:

Make sure at least one E7 outlet has a neon indicator, especially if you go for the 'bodge' of single supply operation.  Best avoided, especially in locations where there's no existing spur for a panel heater.

Hi both. Sorry to slightly derail but could you expand on the potential issues of "single supply operation". I have storage heaters in a flat in London which are single supply. I had the consumer unit which the storage heaters were connected on removed from the E7 circuit and instead run to be constantly live. With a view to controlling via a smart timer/switch which I'm hoping to get sorted soon (as I need to start using them now it's getting cold!). This would allow me to align the times they activate with cheapest times on a tariff such as Octopus Agile (and be able to manually switch on/off during the day for a boost).


A bit of googling and found this on using a single supply to the Quantums:  https://help.gdhv.co.uk/support/solutions/articles/79000141048-how-do-i-wire-a-qmrf-for-single-supply-


Doesn't seem to be any issue?

With the Quantum and iirc the Elnur Ecombi HHR series that wouldn't be an issue.


But other heaters - require both the bespoke isolated high current restricted feed for charging and a 24/7 live feed  - for fans, thermostats and controller electronics.

In the Quantums the 24/7 (single or dual fed) also drives the boost heater or similarly what iirc Elnur call the balance heater iirc. If user mode or room temp settings respectively  mean  need to draw more energy  than charged previous night etc.



So take the wiring reqts from manuals for the wider Glen Dimplex Creda Ltd current or recent NSH offerings as example

HHR Quantums - afaik all RF series (but iirc crucially if looking second hand - maybe only later generation non RF series) Quantums can be single wired.

Their own XLE series non hhr NSH models must be dual wired.  I just downloaded the manual to check.

Their sister company Creda TSRE again iirc  from c4 years ago must be dual wired as well.


Not checked other Elnurs as rejected az rfe high end e-combi spec said it wouldn't  support my 3 off peak charging slots only e7s 1 or in some regions split into 2.


As an aside re automation plans.

There are posts here from people doing Agile rate based automation.  DO a search.  Sorry cannot remember names.  Search start a thread with title help with automated use of cheap Agile rates or somr such asking for advice.


You might also want to check how any plans you have to move to a dynamic charge window rather than fixed might interact with the heater charge adaption (learning / dynamic )  algorithms used in some of the latest heatersif considering an upgrade.

There is scant detail in the last version of Quantum RF manual I read - other than a reference to variable time of use being supported. That might be via their own HUB controls only.  As it was iirc back in EDF / Ovo / Kaluza  trial and tariff special days - 4-5 years ago now.

Gerry1

@ch_152 The risk when mimicking the E7 times instead of having a circuit switched by the meter is that the times turn out not to be what you think.

The web may say one set of times, your supplier's call centre says another and someone in the pub says something else, but the only thing that matters is what your meter actually does.

Other jokers in the pack are GMT/BST changes, a two-hour peak rate interlude soon after midnight and clocks that drift.

So it's very easy to be charging at the expensive day rate for some of the time and not realise.  It's often not obvious which rate is in use, especially if you don't specifically check.  That's why an easily visible neon indicator light is so useful, you'll notice any unexpected change and it'll also tell you when it's cheaper to use other high power items.

If you get a timer make sure it's rated for the high charging current (don't use the NSH's output power which will be much lower).

ch_152

Interesting both, thanks.

Think this has prompted a couple of other queries but will do some searching and start a separate thread if necessary.