Help please - PoFA compliant NtK

CalAskingForAFriend

Hi All,

So sorry to post and ask for help - I feel like the answer I’m looking for must be around somewhere - but I spent all weekend searching and I’m none the wiser.

I received a Notice to Keeper after waiting in the car on two double yellow lines in a cul-de-sac that was marked as “Private - No Parking”. I was unaware that the road was private and that no parking was allowed, there were signs but it’s just not a road that you would expect to be private or no parking so I was very much not expecting that there would be issues - foolishly, I didn’t even check the rules because it didn’t cross my mind that such rules would exist on this road. I was picking up a friend and waiting for them in the car.

The street parking is monitored by CCTV (the is a sign which shows CCTV) so I got the NtK by post through number plate recognition rather than having anything put on my windscreen.

I am facing two issues in respect of appealing the NtK (and not even sure if I should or can):

1. I don’t know who the “Retailer” is so I don’t know who to complain to

2. The notice seems PoFA compliant to my untrained eye so I’m not sure I can use the argument that the driver is unknown and the keeper is not liable?

The only arguments I can think of are:

1. No parking charge notice was sent out to anyone. The first correspondence I had on this was the Notice to Keeper which states that the driver should be aware of the liability based on the signs on the street.

2. The street does not seem like it should be a private street with no parking as it seems very public to me.

3. The notice does not mention who their Retailer is. I don’t know if there is a requirement to?

I would be very grateful for any help on this. Sorry, I just feel very lost and not sure if I should just pay it since I do seem at fault here?

Many thanks,
(Removed by Forum Team)

Thorndorise

First things first, don't pay!

The Newbies section pinned to the top of this forum is the best place to start - what you have received is the PCN via the NtK.

TBH it doesn't sound like you were parked at all, especially if you remained in the car which will be visible on any CCTV footage. As such, they'll be hard pushed to pursue that line. I'm not sure the private road felt public argument will wash - but I don't think it matters - as you weren't parked - you were stopped awaiting a passenger pick up on double yellows which is allowed.

Things that will help the experts on here are location of alleged event, a redacted copy of your NtK so we can see who the Private parking company is.

You can generally access more pics if you access the PPC's website as if you are going to pay, but look at the evidence they hold. If you have any pics that is also useful as it can show how useless signs like the one you mention can be, I think the key thing here is what your NtK says, and if it pertains to parking or no stopping etc.

Gr1pr

Name the private parking company involved 

Give the exact location details 

Ideally post pictures of the signs 

If showing us both sides of the PCN invoice, redact the personal and private details, hiding the VRM details, your own details, the reference number, leaving all dates and times showing 

Study the newbies sticky thread in announcements too

CalAskingForAFriend

Hi,
Thank you so much for your quick reply - much appreciated! 

That sounds optimistic - although I was waiting in the car for the passenger for about 20 minutes. 

I’ll add the NtK from National Parking Management Limited which says “No Parking Permitted” 

Thanks very much!

Gr1pr

1a) that Notice to Keeper, an NTK, is the private parking charge notice from NPM , an IPC AOS member, a private parking company 

2a) its definitely a private road or street, the picture shows it to be so, as would enforcement by a private parking company, NPM , enforcement on private property, that private road, street or area ( so not a council road or street. ( Or Highways England either. ).

The demarcation line seems to be where the road changes and it states, "private road, no parking", where the sign post is 

3a ) its private property, there is no legal requirement to name the landowner or managing agent, forget the retailer aspect because its probably not relevant here 

Its currently an unregulated industry, preying on the naive unaware victims 

NPM will reject any of, no profit in accepting the appeal, so pure greed wins out 

Plan A is always the best option, but I can not see any appeal working, not with an IPC company, especially if the driver should not be there

Coupon-mad

Just ignore them until you get a small claim (if ever). Tell them if you move house. That's it.

The MHCLG's new (incoming, not yet finalised) Code of Practice confirms that picking up or setting down passengers is not parking. So does the appeal case of Jopson v Homeguard.

If you want a laugh : appeal to NPM then to the useless IAS, stating the above and that double yellow lines mean that drivers CAN stop for boarding & alighting (confirmed in the Highway Code).  Repeat that at IAS.

Let's see what drivel the IAS say. Could be useful.

You won't win (unless NPM drop out, which they might) but it could be useful to start gathering some bad IAS joke decisions just to show what the new Single Appeals Service must avoid doing.

CalAskingForAFriend

Hi Gr1pr

Thank you for your help, much appreciated and all understood

Sounds like I should pay it - I feared this might be the outcome. I’m not sure I’ll be able to find out who the landowner is to attempt Plan A - I’ve tried asking a few commercial properties nearby.

I was just so unaware of the rules on that private road - it didn’t cross my mind because it’s such a busy road with many cars and access to many different properties (including residential, commercial and university).

Thanks for the help and response!

Gr1pr

Nobody here would recommend paying the PCN 

Its a speculative invoice that can be challenged in Civil Court, as seen in the reply by coupon mad above 

Just because they demand payment doesn't mean that they are entitled to payment 

Gullible uninformed people pay,  I know that I wouldn't 

CalAskingForAFriend

Thank you Coupon Mad and Gr1pr

All understood - I’m a bit worried I’ll be lost at the small claims stage

Thorndorise

CalAskingForAFriend said:

Thank you Coupon Mad and Gr1pr

All understood - I’m a bit worried I’ll be lost at the small claims stage

Stay close to this group, they will look after you here, no one recommends paying - I was nervous in my case - still ongoing - but stay the course, it will embolden you and show these companies that they cannot take people for granted.

CalAskingForAFriend

Thorndorise said:

CalAskingForAFriend said:

Thank you Coupon Mad and Gr1pr

All understood - I’m a bit worried I’ll be lost at the small claims stage

Stay close to this group, they will look after you here, no one recommends paying - I was nervous in my case - still ongoing - but stay the course, it will embolden you and show these companies that they cannot take people for granted.

Thank you for the reassurance! 

What will form the basis of my main argument once it gets to small claims dispute? I’ll argue that the driver was not parked as they were in the car and waiting for a passenger?

Will they not argue that 20 minutes is excessive for waiting and the driver is at fault for not being aware of the signs and restrictions on a private road?

What is the general defence against these private parking companies in situations where the driver has breached the parking rules and the private parking company has evidence of this?

I’m being a classic newbie but I’m just worried that driver was at fault here and they’ll win on that basis

Thanks