Estate valuation and Probate - chicken and egg?

moominyak

Apologies in advance if this is obvious to everyone but me, and/or has been asked a thousand times before!

The MSE Guide to Probate shows 'Apply' as no. 6, then 'Value the Estate' as no. 8.  Logical enough.

However, when applying for Probate online, the estate must be valued BEFORE the Probate can be applied for, because inputting the values for the various parts of the estate is part of the application.

How is the Executor supposed to value sole bank accounts, shares etc that they won't have access to until Probate has been granted?  It seems a bit backwards to have to value the estate before the Executor has full access to all areas of that estate!  There are probably sole accounts etc that the Executor isn't even aware of yet.

TIA

p00hsticks

My understanding is that an executor can't / shouldn't apply for probate until they have established the value of the estate and identified any debts.

They may not have full access to e.g bank accounts but in my recent experience showing a copy of the will and ID to prove that you are the executor is sufficient for financial institutions to inform you of what accounts are held and the balances in them at the time of death, which is all you'll need for the application.

Probate is only required to actually extract the money (and depending on the value banks may even be happy to release funds without it)

peteuk

Probate for property and money are two separate things.

If applying for probate for a house then there is nothing stopping you from putting it on the market prior to probate being issued, the estate agent will caveat the sale with pending probate.  At this point you will know the market value of the house.

Banks accounts depends on the bank and what they set as probate level. My father had £20+K in his bank accounts and as my sister had POA, the bank closed his accounts and set up a new account with his money in it.  This didn’t go to probate but was used to keep the house ticking over whilst we sold it.

Probate is relatively easy once the form is completed, 

moominyak

p00hsticks said:

in my recent experience showing a copy of the will and ID to prove that you are the executor is sufficient for financial institutions to inform you of what accounts are held and the balances in them at the time of death, which is all you'll need for the application.

Probate is only required to actually extract the money (and depending on the value banks may even be happy to release funds without it)

Thank you, that makes sense.  We did see the bank last week but didn't have the will with us at the time, it was more about getting access sorted, requesting cards etc. I will pass that info on to the Executor (we are trying to deal with as much as possible on behalf of the Executor, who is not an admin/computer/bank person).

moominyak

peteuk said:

Probate for property and money are two separate things.

If applying for probate for a house then there is nothing stopping you from putting it on the market prior to probate being issued, the estate agent will caveat the sale with pending probate.  At this point you will know the market value of the house.

Banks accounts depends on the bank and what they set as probate level. My father had £20+K in his bank accounts and as my sister had POA, the bank closed his accounts and set up a new account with his money in it.  This didn’t go to probate but was used to keep the house ticking over whilst we sold it.

Probate is relatively easy once the form is completed, 

Thank you.  We won't be selling house as the Executor (and sole beneficiary) is the remaining spouse (and my parent).  At the bank last week, we were advised that we will require probate in order to access the sole bank accounts held by the deceased parent, but as mentioned above, hopefully going in again with the will would at least enable us to ascertain the values of those accounts.  Still don't know how we are supposed to value things we don't even know about though - we know that there are shares, ISAs etc, but no idea of values atm.

CalvinHobs

As pete says, applying for probate is relatively easy. I applied online and it took about 10 minutes. I submitted the application in August and received the Grant of Probate last week - 4 weeks after applying.

The time-consuming part is if you need to pay IHT on the estate. In addition to the IHT400 form, I had to complete 8 different supporting IHT forms - and this was for a fairly simple estate. I then had to wait for HMRC to issue a code in order to apply for probate.

The banks and building societies have different probate limits, e.g. Nationwide is £50,000 while Metro Bank is £25,000. The banks regard you as the "personal representative" of the deceased until you receive probate, at which point you officially become the Executor of their estate.

The banks and building societies ask for proof of your ID - unless you happen to already hold accounts with them. They also ask to see copies of the Death Certificate and the will. You can either take these into branch or post them to their bereavement team.

Halifax have a process where they email you a unique link to a document portal - you can then upload scanned copies of documents and ID. I found this convenient but none of the other banks and building societies I dealt with offered this service.

CalvinHobs

Still don't know how we are supposed to value things we don't even know about though - we know that there are shares, ISAs etc, but no idea of values atm.

This guide may be of some help:
Tracing the assets of a deceased estate | Low Incomes Tax Reform Group

CalvinHobs

I will pass that info on to the Executor (we are trying to deal with as much as possible on behalf of the Executor, who is not an admin/computer/bank person).

I don't mean to be rude but are they the right person for the role of Executor? My experience over the last 9 months is that most of what an Executor does is admin - and a lot of this involves banks and/or computers.

As you are not the named Executor, you are limited in what you can actually do - see this article:
Can I Carry Out Probate Work on Behalf of the Executor?

When my mum died (a few years ago) I was named as Executor in her will. At the time, I was in full-time employment and did not wish to take on the time-consuming role of administering her estate. I decided to appoint the Co-op to act for me - I retained the role of Executor but they did all of the admin. I don't want to break the forum rules and recommend them but - suffice to say - everything worked out okay. In your case, perhaps the Executor could look into getting a quote from them and also from local solicitors to compare?

Keep_pedalling

Assuming this is excepted estate with everything passing to the surviving spouse and no IHT return needed then probate should be very easy and no need to pay professionals. 

The bank’s bereavement department will be able to give the executor account values once they have proof of their authority. 

Linton

moominyak said:

Apologies in advance if this is obvious to everyone but me, and/or has been asked a thousand times before!

The MSE Guide to Probate shows 'Apply' as no. 6, then 'Value the Estate' as no. 8.  Logical enough.

However, when applying for Probate online, the estate must be valued BEFORE the Probate can be applied for, because inputting the values for the various parts of the estate is part of the application.

How is the Executor supposed to value sole bank accounts, shares etc that they won't have access to until Probate has been granted?  It seems a bit backwards to have to value the estate before the Executor has full access to all areas of that estate!  There are probably sole accounts etc that the Executor isn't even aware of yet.

TIA

An executor can get account values and bank statements on request.  You only need probate to withdraw the money.

moominyak

CalvinHobs said:

I will pass that info on to the Executor (we are trying to deal with as much as possible on behalf of the Executor, who is not an admin/computer/bank person).

I don't mean to be rude but are they the right person for the role of Executor? My experience over the last 9 months is that most of what an Executor does is admin - and a lot of this involves banks and/or computers.

As you are not the named Executor, you are limited in what you can actually do - see this article:
Can I Carry Out Probate Work on Behalf of the Executor?

When my mum died (a few years ago) I was named as Executor in her will. At the time, I was in full-time employment and did not wish to take on the time-consuming role of administering her estate. I decided to appoint the Co-op to act for me - I retained the role of Executor but they did all of the admin. I don't want to break the forum rules and recommend them but - suffice to say - everything worked out okay. In your case, perhaps the Executor could look into getting a quote from them and also from local solicitors to compare?

You are so right, they are not the right person for the role of Executor at all (mirror wills), which is why we (as the offspring, who are more pc/admin savvy etc) are trying to do as much as possible on their behalf (we have their blessing/permission/encouragement). We may well end up engaging their existing solicitor to do it, but IME with solicitors, the client still ends up doing a lot of the donkey-work.