6 seconds in a yellow box - received a ticket

enginestar

I got a ticket from Redbridge Council for flipping 6 seconds in some junction box.
I was in the box maybe 10 secs total (other 4 seconds, I was moving slowly).

I've appealed saying there was a car ahead that *suddenly* held up traffic.
I positioned myself to over take the mini backlog (safely and legally) - hence why I was stationary for just 6 seconds.
I could actually have positioned the car so that I was out of the box (at least my tyres out), but I deemed that to be dangerous so I didn't do this.
I only entered the box because there was free flowing traffic.

The above is what I have said - or something very close (I have written and saved on my PC exactly what I said).

The idiots will no doubt reject my appeal and not bother reading.

I thought I would pass it by you guys to see what advice you would give.

Thanks.

lisyloo

From highway code.

You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.

6 seconds is very frustrating and it happens to all of us but your defence doesn't stand up.
It doesn't say the traffic is free flowing and you expect that to remain constant it says your exit is clear.
Sorry.
I would pay up ASAP so you don't get extra added.
Sympathies as it's harsh but technically I think you're in the wrong.

Umkomaas

As we major on private parking tickets here, Free Traffic Legal Advice (FTLA) forum will be your best bet for council penalty charges. Register there but please note that a Hotmail address may not work - try using a throwaway Gmail account instead if you do have trouble registering, and post a new thread; here's your link:

https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?board=3.0

Read the sticky 'Read this first before posting your case' as well as reading through some of the other threads there ahead of posting your own details, to get the hang of what information they need from you in your opening post - but as a minimum you will need to post redacted photos/scans of all correspondence you've received from the council (both sides, if appropriate), as they need to see all the small print.

enginestar

I'll ask for advice on new website

@lisyloo I thought I'd mention though: there is always common sense that needs to be applied - just going on my experience from past ticket appealed

Like you're not allowed to park on double yellow lines
If you are stationary there for 2 min - doesn't necessarily mean you can be rightfully given a ticket

You guys might be right, I might not have an appeal. I'll have to make a call about appealing or not.
6 seconds is such a small amount of time.

Coupon-mad

Drivers can park on double yellows for loads of reasons, perfectly legitimately. I do it all the time if picking up or dropping off passengers, for example.

lisyloo

enginestar said:

I'll ask for advice on new website

@lisyloo I thought I'd mention though: there is always common sense that needs to be applied - just going on my experience from past ticket appealed

Like you're not allowed to park on double yellow lines
If you are stationary there for 2 min - doesn't necessarily mean you can be rightfully given a ticket

You guys might be right, I might not have an appeal. I'll have to make a call about appealing or not.
6 seconds is such a small amount of time.

I would say MUST NOT is an absolute and there's zero tolerance.
A bit like jumping a red light.

Obviously we have a different idea of common sense but the box is there to precisely to avoid what you did i.e. not keeping it free for other traffic.
This is the problem with common sense. Others might call it anarchy which is what it would be if everyone made their mind up when it was ok to exceed the speed limit or jump a red light.
That's why there are absolutes in the highway code.

I'd be interested to know what happens.

DullGreyGuy

lisyloo said:

enginestar said:

I'll ask for advice on new website

@lisyloo I thought I'd mention though: there is always common sense that needs to be applied - just going on my experience from past ticket appealed

Like you're not allowed to park on double yellow lines
If you are stationary there for 2 min - doesn't necessarily mean you can be rightfully given a ticket

You guys might be right, I might not have an appeal. I'll have to make a call about appealing or not.
6 seconds is such a small amount of time.

I would say MUST NOT is an absolute and there's zero tolerance.
A bit like jumping a red light.

Obviously we have a different idea of common sense but the box is there to precisely to avoid what you did i.e. not keeping it free for other traffic.
This is the problem with common sense. Others might call it anarchy which is what it would be if everyone made their mind up when it was ok to exceed the speed limit or jump a red light.
That's why there are absolutes in the highway code.

I'd be interested to know what happens.

There is a tiny bit of tolerance, I entered a large yellow box junction as my lane was clear when I entered however a car in front realised their lane stopped before they expected meaning they were going to stop in the yellow box and so they cut me up without indicating and took the space I was moving into meaning the back 40cm or so was in the yellow box. Did get off on appeal saying I was cutup and it had been clear when I entered. 

lisyloo

DullGreyGuy said:

lisyloo said:

enginestar said:

I'll ask for advice on new website

@lisyloo I thought I'd mention though: there is always common sense that needs to be applied - just going on my experience from past ticket appealed

Like you're not allowed to park on double yellow lines
If you are stationary there for 2 min - doesn't necessarily mean you can be rightfully given a ticket

You guys might be right, I might not have an appeal. I'll have to make a call about appealing or not.
6 seconds is such a small amount of time.

I would say MUST NOT is an absolute and there's zero tolerance.
A bit like jumping a red light.

Obviously we have a different idea of common sense but the box is there to precisely to avoid what you did i.e. not keeping it free for other traffic.
This is the problem with common sense. Others might call it anarchy which is what it would be if everyone made their mind up when it was ok to exceed the speed limit or jump a red light.
That's why there are absolutes in the highway code.

I'd be interested to know what happens.

There is a tiny bit of tolerance, I entered a large yellow box junction as my lane was clear when I entered however a car in front realised their lane stopped before they expected meaning they were going to stop in the yellow box and so they cut me up without indicating and took the space I was moving into meaning the back 40cm or so was in the yellow box. Did get off on appeal saying I was cutup and it had been clear when I entered. 

I would say that's a different situation. 
It sounds like the exit was clear when you entered whereas in the OP's case it wasn't clear and they just expected it to clear by the time they got there. That's how is sounds.

baser999

I got caught with a yellow box penalty a few years back when a car just suddenly swung out of a side turn to occupy the space I’d have otherwise driven into. Council accepted my appeal and the charge was cancelled 👍
Six months ago I was caught again when the car ahead of me decided to cross the box but then stop 10 foot behind the car in front of him. I was about 2 feet into the box, realised what he’d done and stopped but that 2 feet was my downfall and the council didn’t entertain my appeal. What infuriated me more was the fact the box junction is situated where the entrance to the station car park meets the main road and is obviously designed to keep traffic flowing however that car parks closed at weekends so effectively it’s not a junction 🤔

lisyloo

Again I would say the same thing.
The first time something suddenly happened that a reasonable person would not have forseen and wasn't right in front of you.
The second time you did not wait for the exit to be clear.
I'm not judge and jury on these things but that's how it's all looking to me.

If people cannot cope with a simple box junction then how will they cope with one that only operates at certain times of day.
Is it really that big a deal to wait 6 seconds or wait until the exit is clear when it's not being used as a junction?

This is why we get traffic lights that slow everyone down, because people can't follow simple rules.
Of course people do still jump red lights but at least the rules are clear that's there's no tolerance on red.

baser999

lisyloo said:

Again I would say the same thing.
The first time something suddenly happened that a reasonable person would not have forseen and wasn't right in front of you.
The second time you did not wait for the exit to be clear.
I'm not judge and jury on these things but that's how it's all looking to me.

If people cannot cope with a simple box junction then how will they cope with one that only operates at certain times of day.
Is it really that big a deal to wait 6 seconds or wait until the exit is clear when it's not being used as a junction?

This is why we get traffic lights that slow everyone down, because people can't follow simple rules.
Of course people do still jump red lights but at least the rules are clear that's there's no tolerance on red.

The council accepted I wasn’t at fault the first time so my charge was quite rightly cancelled.
As for the second I accept that I encroached into the box, but I wouldn’t have expected the vehicle ahead of me to have suddenly stopped about 10ft off the one in front of him. So it’s not a case of ‘it really being a deal to wait 6 seconds . . ‘ but more a case of someone in front not driving with due consideration to others. I have seen this behaviour at many such box junctions and would go as far as suggesting there are drivers out there doing it deliberately knowing the driver behind is going to be ticketed