Scottish Power mysterious meter

Robin9

I don't think the solicitor can be at fault here. Perhaps the previous owner was a little "conservative with the truth"

Where you go from here I don't know -  can't the other householders will want to rock the boat. Until the day you don't pay the bill and are cut off alongside you.

Eminster

Robin9 said:

I don't think the solicitor can be at fault here. Perhaps the previous owner was a little "conservative with the truth"

Where you go from here I don't know -  can't the other householders will want to rock the boat. Until the day you don't pay the bill and are cut off alongside you.

You are right, it was a very difficult purchase, they weren't very cooperative. 
I don't have the bill in front of me but it was just estimated with no readings at all 

Robin9

Could possibly post the bill ?  Make sure you blank out the personal info inc the MPAN number. 

Ae you able to read the meter -  you may need two pieces of data -  a demand in kVa and units in kWH.

It may be an idea to invite all your neighbours to coffee and cake and then identify who is being sub metered and who is billed by a supplier.


I was an engineer in a DNO many years ago with a similar situation -  an old estate with the managers house and other estate buildings not metered at all and then a bunch who had a proper meter in a   building (with no access) and others who were sub metered. I don't think it ever got resolved.

Eminster

Thanks Robin, I will post after work  
 
Long story short:
the previous owners build up a large area and they kept for them this big house with few outbuildings. He rented everything to different people and he installed 4-5 submeters.  At some point they sold some outbuilding to (not real names) James, a double garage to Mike, a semidetached to me and recently the other semidetached again to Mike. James decided to disconnected himself and paid for a new connection. 

I'm in a similar position like the episode you described, I do speak to Mike but he's a bit sleepery, I'm probably the only one has access to the main meter but the submeter are in Mike's property (a cupboard on his drive). 
I thought to ask to my commercial electrician or to UKPN to switch off the big supply and see what is connected to it     

Eminster

The second one hasn’t go my name but both came on the same envelope 

Robin9

Some good news  - your authorised capacity charge for 40 kVa is low (and probably in line with the demand of you and the other premises) and you are being charged 5% VAT and not 20%. But wow that standing charge and that unit rate.

Eminster

Robin9 said:

Some good news  - your authorised capacity charge for 40 kVa is low (and probably in line with the demand of you and the other premises) and you are being charged 5% VAT and not 20%. But wow that standing charge and that unit rate.

Thanks 
can an electrician check how much capacity I actual get in my board ?
I think that capacity is spread between few units 
the charges are for business and I’m not a business 
I can’t see any readings

Robin9

The actual unit rates and the capacity charge are almost negligible in comparison to the bill. Business unit rates are not much adrift compared to domestic -  my business rate is under 25p.

It's the whole set up which is not suitable  but making it standard is an expensive exercise , whoever pays.

Robin9

Could you take a close up of the "supposed to be my supply" meter.    Make/model/serial number.   There are often buttons to press to take you through the various screens.

There are meter readers on the Forum who will be able to help you read the correct screens.

Scot_39

Eminster said:

Robin9 said:

Some good news  - your authorised capacity charge for 40 kVa is low (and probably in line with the demand of you and the other premises) and you are being charged 5% VAT and not 20%. But wow that standing charge and that unit rate.

Thanks 
can an electrician check how much capacity I actual get in my board ?
I think that capacity is spread between few units 
the charges are for business and I’m not a business 
I can’t see any readings

Most standard modern single phase meters, consumer units etc designed for upto peak of 100A single phase iirc = 23 kVA (100A*230V/1000).

(Often at a set temp range - nominally iirc 20C max continuous 100A - which is what looks like part of notation on your personal meter. 

So traditional high domestic electrical loads - things like multiple NSH triggering overnight on E7 in winter - wouldn't present a problem.  Its in part a thermal heating constraint for wiring / meter tails etc - but other considerations come into play - terminal sizing, wiring diameters, contact surface areas etc)

But whilst your main isolator switch is rated at 100A - I think the RCD protected lower section - whilst the consumer  unit is itself rated for upto 100A - the actual RCD fitted is rated for 80A - the double width unit above the green sticker. 

Which might now in any case be a limit on any new incoming DNO fuse - if you need one fitted as part of a new connection.

The DNO will I guess have to do all the necessary checks on external wiring - they may in fact have to run completely new street to home connections - depending on who "owns" - and how many share the feed from the "communal feed" at present.  

In the limit - on longer power cable runs - the size of the cables are not only chosen for rated current / power - but are  dependent on the route - enclosed (buried /in closed trunking, free air etc) 

(Why your told to fully unwind an extension reel if using at rated load - they overheat if dont).  

A domestic electrician wont know whats undergorund for the 123m run.

Do you own the shed - do you communally own it as shared freeholders etc. 

And actual likely demand - which might have changed with use anyway - and some might need changing soon anyway if restrictive.

(Many asking for upgrades to 80A or 100A fuses from old lower rated fuses - e.g to fit ASHP or EV charger - the DNO might when check records or survey - find were actually on a shared connection with 1 or 2 neighbours from street level tap - then often they need new street to home wiring put in - often free. At one stage - read some reports saying 3 phase for "greening" your energy was also free - not sure now).

You don't show an incoming fuse ahead of your meter - you might have one - you just havent shown the wiring into your home feeding the meter - most homes do - and both are often - in a standard modern meter cabinet or in parents case on wall above main door) - literally only 10s of cm apart.

And that for a standard single phase DNO supply fuse - again rated 100A nominal at most - again a nominal 23kVA. (Thats close to 23kW - same for resistive loading - but varies depending on load type - and again set assuming a nominal temp - again getting geeky electrical engineer level).

But many modern houses - will have a lower 60A or 80A incoming fuse limit - so in reality many homes capped nominally at either 13.8 kVA or 18.4 kVA.  Historically the fuses were even lower. 

80A / 18.4 kVA - is the new preferred DNO standard maximum single phase (since 2023 - but these are relatively long blow fuses - so can cope with more - at say the old 100A nominal - for a decent period - 4 hours quoted in their "decision" summary doc - link below - so unlikely to significantly hamper many (but could be a concern to a larger all electric home using traditional resisitive heating)

https://www.nationalgrid.co.uk/downloads-view-reciteme/633928

(theres an actual graph of "overcurrent" vs trip duration in that link if an electrical / power geek (they will only blow quickly in a real overcurrent fault / short situation.))

So you are probaby going to end up with 80A / 18.4 kVA - if you get that commercial supply split to domestic between the x properties - unless need more.

As I note from that link - that for larger homes - who foresee a need for more than the old 23kVA limit (some have posted here have had to go three phase - say to run 2x ASHP - in larger detached properties ) - the new standard is likely to be 3 phase at 3x60A fused supplies - so a nominal 41.4 kVA.

How much peak power - and I mean power - not energy (we think largely in energy - as our SC system is flat rate and on average - bills traditionally (at least prior to recent SC rises) for most dominated by energy charges /kWh)  - does a typical home use ??

With gas heating and HW etc probably always a fraction of fuse capacity - with all electric - a lot more.

My small 2 bed all electric - has HW immersion and 3 NSH to draw just over 10 kW when in use - mainly resistive - so 10 kVA - my electric shower 9kW / 9 kVA etc - 19kVA total - above the new 80A nominal limit - but I currently have a 100A fuse / 23 kVA (nominal limit)).

But as can be seen from the 4 hour overcurrent rating at upto 100A - a 10 min shower - would impose no real risk - to the fuse - even at 80A fuse if derated if ran that 19kW load.

A lot of people with gas - probably their biggest single power draw is a 3kW kettle or a 2-3 kW plug in fire / microwave / oven / hob etc - but run 3-4 at same time - maybe 10-12kW - hence older homes with a 60A fuse have survived for decades (and again if needed can peak over for "short" periods in any case).

Aside

In France for instance - unlike UK - EDFs and others standard tariffs band their standing charges by peak consumer power draw - not energy - power in kVA (simple volts peak * current peak ) - and like UK a fixed unit rate.

[Its an interesting idea - as in the limit - from a grid balance point of view - power is what sets the need for the capacity - in limit the number of power plants and capacity aspects of grid connections (like thermal constraints) on wires - ultimately the number of pylons etc.

(ESO £58bn 2030-2035 estimated costs isn't just connections for renewables - it's also core forecast demand / capacity - as more people switch from 10,000+ kWh of GCH to maybe 3500kWh of ASHP of electrical demand - or from ICE to EV - semi continous loading in the 3-5kW range for a samll-medium sized ASHP - 7kW day or night on some schemes for EV charger - across c24 on gas mains/28m homes).

The EDF bands start at just 3kVA (thats just a 3kW "fast boil" kettle in UK terms - you can buy 2.2kW or even lower rated and could stay below ) and charges go up in 3kVA steps to 18 kVA (close to new UK 80A DNO standard) but then step in 6 kVA steps to 36 kVA (below the DNO 3 phase standard) - each 3kVA step currently adds another €35-40 to annual fixed charge.  Must try and find a distribution by band - and how often have to go over to move a level.