Training before starting work

Undervalued

LinLui said:

Is this your friend on a work visa with her new job? Because if so:
(a) mandatory training "ought" to be paid - but I'll reserve judgement on that based on the sparse facts provided, because what the law says and how employers can get around what the law says are different things... and...
(b) social care employer (notoriously bad employers, and experts at manipulating the law) and worker on a visa - I wouldn't be questioning my new employer about anything unless I wanted to be out of work and with no visa. 

With respect @FlorayG, you tend to post "what does the law say" queries without providing any facts or context. It's naive to think that "the law" is that simple,  or that working life is that simple. What is the "right" answer and what is the sensible answer are seldom the same thing. 

Exactly!

Even if (big if) the law matches the OPs expectation (on behalf of their friend), they still need to think about the real world implications about make a big issue of something like this.

A more pragmatic point of view would be is the whole package (i.e do the "training" for free) a step better than their current situation in the longer term? Do they have a viable better alternative?

FlorayG

I do appreciate you need to be pragmatic about it and it'snot even for me, I'm just asking if it's allowed or not *officially*, I don't intend to 'make an issue' about it, I'm just curious

LinLui

FlorayG said:

I do appreciate you need to be pragmatic about it and it'snot even for me, I'm just asking if it's allowed or not *officially*, I don't intend to 'make an issue' about it, I'm just curious

I think you are missing the point. It may,  or it may not,  be legal. Without the context, anything anyone says is speculation because they are filling in blanks. Yes,  there are circumstances where it would be unlawful. But there are ways around that. 

So the answer is yes/ no/ maybe...

Marcon

LinLui said:

FlorayG said:

I do appreciate you need to be pragmatic about it and it'snot even for me, I'm just asking if it's allowed or not *officially*, I don't intend to 'make an issue' about it, I'm just curious

I think you are missing the point. It may,  or it may not,  be legal. Without the context, anything anyone says is speculation because they are filling in blanks. Yes,  there are circumstances where it would be unlawful. But there are ways around that. 

So the answer is yes/ no/ maybe...

Quite. Maybe instead of posting here, it might be more help to direct them to ACAS's free helpline: 0300 123 1100 with basic queries like this, but where some background context is needed?

FlorayG

LinLui has answered my actual question ( the answer is "it depends")
I repeat, I'm just asking out of curiosity, I don't intend to 'do' anything about it, there's no need to try and make it person specific, the person who told me about it isn't really bothered

DullGreyGuy

tacpot12 said:

You are entitled to be paid. There is case law about this. You are a worker and not an employee while doing this training before being given a contract of employment. 

https://www.acas.org.uk/getting-paid-for-mandatory-training

You better tell ACAS that they are wrong @tacpot12

FlorayG

thanks for that link @DullGreyGuy it clarifies it. I still think it's just mean not to pay while doing mandatory training but it seems it's not actually legal in many cases